A very loyal pro-life reader who enjoys his martinis recently sent me the following note: “Dear Pat: I have read your blog for years and you are clearly the most articulate voice in the pro-death movement. Indeed, several times I have come close to converting to your side based on some of your very persuasive arguments. But after the effects of the martini wore off, I came to my senses. Now, my question is do pro-lifers have the right to break the laws that protect the killers and their helpers?’
Well, I appreciate those very kind comments. Now, let’s get to the question.
Let me first lay out my qualifications (or lack thereof). I went to law school for one year then dropped out, so I am NOT a lawyer. Indeed, I totally bombed on my constitutional law final exam. In addition, I am a former “hippie” who actively opposed the Vietnam War but was never arrested. And I’m too lazy to do a lot of Google research on the definition of “rights.” But I’m smart enough to realize that I am somewhat of a pro-choice “voice” and that this is one of those “gotcha” questions that we all pose in the hopes of trapping our opponents and, if successful, letting the world know about it. But I really don’t care about being “caught” in a seemingly contradictory position or providing some “evidence” that I might have some reservations about the abortion issue (as I have suggested when it comes to third trimester abortions).
Still, my answer on this question is NO.
Of course, those of you who oppose abortion have the ability to break any law you want, including the one that says you can’t murder anyone, bomb a building or trespass on private property. It’s happened in the past and will happen again. So, if you are willing to deal with the consequences, folks, knock yourself out.
But I think it is inherently contradictory to suggest that you have a “right” to break a law. If that were the case, there would only be chaos. When you break the law, you are taking the chance that you will be caught and punished. Now some might harken back to our Founding Fathers who, during their deliberations on the Declaration of Independence, knew they were committing treasonous acts. In fact, many argued that they had an obligation to break the law. But I don’t think any of them would have suggested that it was their “right” to commit treason. Then, later, there were the abolitionists who felt the same moral obligation to free the slaves but they also suffered the legal consequences for some of their unlawful actions.
When I was up to my eyeballs in anti-Vietnam protests, I might have thought that I was doing the moral thing, but I never ever in my wildest dreams would have thought that it was my “right” to violate any laws. Yes, it was my right to protest, Free Speech and all, but only within certain parameters and if I chose to cross those lines, I knew I could be arrested. And, if I was arrested, I could never with a straight face defend myself by suggesting it was my “right” to violate the law.
Looming behind this question is the old “justifiable homicide” argument that Paul Hill made famous. He basically suggested that it was his right to kill a doctor who was going to perform an abortion – but no court ever bought it. Indeed, most pro-lifers never agreed with him either. The purpose of this question that has been posed is designed to get me to agree that killing an abortion doctor is legally defensible. So, nice try, my pro-life friend, but no dice.
Enjoy your martini!
October 23, 2011 at 7:19 pm
A martini-sipping regular asked the ultimate farcical question “Do pro-lifers have the right to break the laws that protect the killers and their helpers?”
What type of “right” are we talking about—moral right, legal right, philosophical right, fundamental right, religious right, constitutional right?
ANSWER: YOU HAVE NO RIGHT.
And does it matter what type of right we’re talking about?
ANSWER: NO
What laws protect killers and their helpers?
ANSWER: NONE. BECAUSE THERE ARE NO KILLERS OR HELPERS.
Are killers and helpers a protected class because they perform abortions, pap smears and colposcopies?
ANSWER: SEE ABOVE. NO
Do prolifers have the right to break laws that protect stem cell researchers or gynecologists who perform tubal ligations or fertility specialists or urologists who perform vasectomies?
ANSWER: NO
Do the rights of the prolifers outweigh the rights of the killers and helpers?
ANSWER: NO
Are the women who have abortions considered helpers or killers?
ANSWER: NO
Are the men involved in these women’s lives considered helpers or killers?
ANSWER: NO
At what degree of involvement is a person considered a killer’s helper?
ANSWER: NEVER
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October 25, 2011 at 8:40 am
But Kate, several pro-choice leaders in the past have admitted that abortion is at least a form of killing. If they are correct, is the woman a “killer”? I dont think they are, but I’m not articulate enough to say why. Help me, Kate!
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October 25, 2011 at 9:02 am
Pat,
With well over 90% of abortions, the form of death is akin to killing cells during oral surgery or an appendectomy or even a pedicure. I agree that there have been prochoice leaders that speak to abortion as a form of killing but it is no where near the level of hysteria that antiabortion activists claim. In fact, a mastectomy is more life-killing, if you want to use such language, than an abortion at 12 weeks.
But you asked if a woman is a killer. I’d agree with Charles when he inferred that we avoid adopting anti abortion activists’ language. So, I’ll say no to your question. A woman with an unwanted pregnancy, who chooses abortion, is really choosing life for herself (and her children). She is affirming her self worth, acknowledging that she is a good person making a good choice.
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October 25, 2011 at 4:35 pm
Kate, you are really a sick individual.
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October 25, 2011 at 9:56 pm
ywhy do you write this?
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October 26, 2011 at 5:56 am
He writes it because he can’t be a hero if he is fighting to “rescue” or “protect” or “respect” something with an IQ lower than an earthworm. So driven is he to prove to himself that he can transcend his own death that he cannot afford to regard you as anything less than a monster. And indeed, by pointing out what you do, you, much like the troll under the bridge, are a great threat to him.
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October 26, 2011 at 7:02 am
Chuck! I don’t think Kate is sick! I’ll bet she doesn’t like it, though, when you compare her to a troll.
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October 27, 2011 at 12:37 pm
I read on the Abortion.com FaceBook page that there are crazy Pro Lifers that want to outlaw Birth Control!
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October 27, 2011 at 1:55 pm
Course I don’t, Sher! I want to outlaw what you probably advocate — mutual masturbation. Controlling births by practicing chastity is just fine.
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October 26, 2011 at 8:57 am
I agree, Kate, about how the vast majority of abortions are done so early that “kill” isn’t a word I would use either. And I agree that we shouldn’t “adopt” the antis language.
But at 23 weeks, what is the woman doing to that life that is inside of her? I’m not looking to “getcha” here but what word would you use to describe the act? Terminating it? Aborting it? Killing it? I just think this has always been that big red elephant in our room that so many pro-choicers avoid. And, believe me, no matter how we refer to it, I dont think it would affect one woman in this country. Indeed, as I said, some pro-choice leaders have said abortion is a “form of killing.”
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October 26, 2011 at 11:16 am
Pat,
I agree that things get rather unpleasant (major understatement) when abortions occur around 23 weeks. And debating language choices is debating “the personal is political” stance. Antis call it murder, killing, slaughter, genocide. Prochoicers tippy toe around using euphemisms like termination or ending a pregnancy. Is taking the 23 fetus out of the uterus in pieces or intact through a c-section killing? Of course. But saying that accomplishes what? The woman still needs to be in charge of HER life.
Would I like to see abortions at 23 or 36 weeks? No. But I didn’t like seeing stillbirths at 41 weeks when I was a labor and delivery nurse, either. Sometimes things present themselves over which we have no control.
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October 26, 2011 at 2:12 pm
Would I like to see the killings of 23 or 36 year olds? No. But I didn’t like seeing 41 year olds dying of cancer when I was a nurse, either. Sometimes things present themselves over which we have no control.
(Looks to me as if you have control over the first, but not the second.)
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February 9, 2014 at 6:18 pm
I’ve been loinokg for a post like this for an age
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April 8, 2014 at 9:09 am
I love these articles. How many words can a wordsmith smith?
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April 22, 2014 at 7:11 am
Information is power and now I’m a !@#$ing dictator.
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October 25, 2011 at 12:50 pm
Kate, in response #1 why does the martini-sipping regular talk normally while you shout?
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February 8, 2014 at 12:49 pm
I just could not depart your wetisbe before suggesting which i extremely enjoyed the conventional info an individual provide for your visitors? Is destined to be back again often to check on up on brand new posts
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October 24, 2011 at 5:56 am
Kate, the self-proclaimed “pro-lifer” mentality is such that if you even think favorably about abortion, you are aiding and abetting it. It’s part of their search for potency in a world which has them at the bottom usually economically, almost always poltically, and always psychology.
While the rest of us get satisfaction from family, friends, social circle, jobs and our self-esteem, for them there’s only the fearsome irritation of not getting things their way. They earn less, they have more children and less education,and they try to make it up by inventing an endeavor which gives them full control of a situation. Hence the invention of phrases which will stick in the public mind, like “killer’s helper,” which they have gotten you to adopt. It’s the little victories which sustain them in their dysfunctional self-help program.
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October 25, 2011 at 8:41 am
Pro-lifers “earn less” that pro-choicers?? Where the heck did you get that, Charles?
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October 25, 2011 at 3:49 pm
That’s from Craig Seaton’s study of self-proclaimed “pro-lifers” who went to trial in Canada for clinic blockading: Activism and Altruism. I wrote about for last year’s Mother’s Day and posted it here. People can find the original table of comparisons on the aborticentrism website.
It makes logical sense if you’re poorer, less educated and more burdened with children than are people who use abortion to control their family size and improve their quality of life that you’re going to either envy, hate or fear them– all of which traits are displayed by the members of that dysfunctional self-help group.
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October 26, 2011 at 8:58 am
Oops, sorry Chuck, I forgot that you had written about it.
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October 26, 2011 at 9:27 am
Thje world shall little note nor long remember what I wrote here, but at least I tried.
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October 26, 2011 at 4:42 pm
“tried”! I call it self-defense.
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October 27, 2011 at 6:11 am
I have noticed over the years that the “protestor’s outside the clinic’s are on the lower end of the income/education scale!! I don’t know what that tells us but it is a fact!!!
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October 27, 2011 at 7:07 am
Well, if indeed a fact, LDM, it should tell you that money corrupts and the word should be “miseducation.”
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October 27, 2011 at 6:20 am
Lorraine, what it tells you is that because they understand that they have the short end of the funnel in so many ways– their kids get a crappy public education, minimal health care, not too much food on the table, cultural values from TV, two parents who have to work because American workers earn less now than they used to 40 years ago, and politicians they elect to work on behalf of Wall Street– they’re going to get even with SOMEBODY, by God! (All this, by the way,is incidental to the root cause of their aborticentrism.)
And who better to dump all their anger on than a pregnant woman? Especially when it gives them a chance to prove to her that they’re holier and more righteous than she, a murderer, is? She’s conflicted, defensive and uncertain of her course– like a domestic abuse victim, she’s a perfect target.
Venting can be therapeutic. Unfortunately, the venting that self-proclaimed “pro-lifers” do is the wrong sort– it only helps them avoid dealing with the issues that are causing them such pain.
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October 26, 2011 at 7:18 am
“Hence the invention of phrases which will stick in the public mind, like “killer’s helper,” which he has gotten you to adopt. It’s the little victories which sustain them in their dysfunctional self-help program.”
Hey Chuck you’re right! I went back and sure enough, there’s Kate adopting my language. I knew I was good but I didn’t think that good!
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October 26, 2011 at 9:00 am
Johnny boy, do you really thing the phrase “killer’s helper” is sticking in “the public mind?’ C’mon, my friend. If you went to one hundred people on the street and used the phrase, they would NEVER think of abortion doctors, etc. I think you’re giving yourself a little too much credit!! Heck I betcha most pro-lifers wouldn’t know what the heck you are talking about!!
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October 26, 2011 at 2:15 pm
You’re probably right, Pat, but on this blog we deal with the elite. Someday it will drift down to the bourgeoisie.
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February 8, 2014 at 1:19 pm
Hi every one, here every one is sharing these kinds of know-how, thrrefoee ite28099s good to read this weblog, and I used to pay a visit this blog everyday.
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October 24, 2011 at 9:55 am
I can definitely relate because when I drink everything is clearer!
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October 25, 2011 at 8:41 am
I hear ya, Melissa. I get great ideas if I drink. Unfortunately, the next day I forget the great idea…
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October 25, 2011 at 10:32 am
sticky notes!
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October 26, 2011 at 9:00 am
Yeah, Jerry, but then I can’t read what I wrote!!! 🙂
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October 26, 2011 at 10:18 am
Abortion would definitely be something that my drunk or buzzed self would be OK with but then sobriety kicks in and…
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October 24, 2011 at 2:32 pm
Two knock-em-dead writings here, Pat’s and Melissa’s. I send Pat a little question and he makes something out of it. And he’s right here: “Indeed, most pro-lifers never agreed with him [Paul Hill] either.”
I really addressed that question to those pro-lifers. Each of us has to ask himself if he has the right to use a bat to protect himself from someone coming at him with a knife. Or must he begin saying the rosary and hope the attacker has a change of heart.
But Pat’s wrong here: “Indeed, several times I have come close to converting to your side based on some of your very persuasive arguments.” He’d have been right, however, if the “I” in the previous sentence referred to himself.
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October 25, 2011 at 8:44 am
Sorry, John, but if I understand your comment, I have never, ever come anywhere near “converting.” Although there are certain aspects of abortion that make me uncomfortable, I choose to side with the woman on this. I just could never bring myself to believe that I know better than that individual.
But you gotta love my responsiveness to your question, huh? what other nationally famous blogger would consider even acknowledging a reader, much less one that he/she totally disagrees with! I love this stuff!!!
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October 25, 2011 at 12:41 pm
Yup, you da man.
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October 25, 2011 at 7:53 am
Any crusader who believes that she (or he) has rights over others, based on their own moral code, is no different than the Taliban.
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October 25, 2011 at 8:45 am
doesn’t a parent have certain rights over their child?
Hey, what happened to Voice, Nunya, etc.? Did I miss their exit?
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October 25, 2011 at 1:53 pm
And Pat, about voice, Nunya, etc. They posted here some of the best prolife writing I’ve ever read. Why should they keep repeating themselves? I’ve saved a lot of it, mostly to my newsletter.
I thank you, Kate, and Chuck for that. Those magnificent posts were all in response to you folks.
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October 26, 2011 at 9:02 am
They should keep writing because more and more people are reading this stuff every day. apparently the readership has increased considerably. But, heck, I’m not gonna beg them to continue writing to the new folks. That’s fine with me!
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October 26, 2011 at 2:19 pm
OK, newfolks, go to skyp1.blogspot.com if you want to read the great stuff that pro-lifers have written.
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October 25, 2011 at 3:38 pm
voice disappeared after I asked her what the problem was in a situtation where a parent called a three-year-old a little shit. I guess she realized she was in over her head when it came to discussing the needs of human life.
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October 26, 2011 at 9:03 am
C’mon, chuck, are you taking credit for voice leaving?
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October 26, 2011 at 2:20 pm
typical Chuck
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October 25, 2011 at 3:44 pm
Parents don’t have rights over their children, Pat. They have obligations.
Parents who think they have rights are people who are using their children to meet their own needs.
The obligations a parent has are:
1. To provide food, clothing and shelter.
2. To provide appropriate behavioral modeling.
3. To provide their child the necessary opportunity to explore the
limits of physical, intellectual and emotional development
safely.
4. To provide their children with the necessary opportunity to
learn from their mistakes.
Any rights a parent has “over” a child are actually the rights to meet these obligations.
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October 25, 2011 at 12:46 pm
Any crusader who believes that she (or he) has rights over others, based on her own moral code, is no different from the Taliban.
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February 7, 2014 at 10:37 pm
Your article pertecfly shows what I needed to know, thanks!
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October 25, 2011 at 8:49 am
Check out a recent repor on Huffington Post from Marianne Mollman, Senior policy advisor at Amnesty International, with the headlines:
UN Special Rapporteur: Abortion Restrictions Don’t Work
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October 25, 2011 at 10:35 am
Thats because they won’t and never will, its a part of everyones logic to side with the woman.
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October 25, 2011 at 12:52 pm
That’s because he won’t and never will, it’s a part of everyone’s logic to side with the woman.
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October 26, 2011 at 9:04 am
Thanks for sharing that with us, Kate. I’m sure this will turn John around!
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October 26, 2011 at 2:21 pm
OK, I’ll go to it.
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October 26, 2011 at 2:40 pm
Mollman tells more lies than Kate, and she doesn’t even write as well. I know that’s hard to believe, but she doesn’t.
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October 25, 2011 at 1:32 pm
When smart John (see #4) wrote “Pat’s wrong here,” he (John) apparently didn’t notice the “…” around the stuff he (John) was quoting. John, go back and read the opening paragraph again. It was the pro-life reader who wrote that stuff, not Pat. I thought you claimed to be an English teacher. I must have gotten that wrong.
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October 25, 2011 at 1:56 pm
Well you got this wrong, D. You go back and reread.
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October 25, 2011 at 2:17 pm
Maybe the “Martini Reader” thinks better when she is a little tipsy…
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October 25, 2011 at 9:58 pm
sonia, do you not know who the martini reader is?
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October 26, 2011 at 12:06 pm
Hey Kate, honestly… No… i don’t know… I was off for a while so i might have lost some info…
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October 26, 2011 at 9:06 am
Hey, Sonia’s back! Or is this a different Sonia? Meanwhile, I gotta say I love the picture that they put on this page of the Martini Reader. Pretty funny.
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October 26, 2011 at 12:06 pm
Hi Pat, No… not a different Sonia… it is MEEEE…
Any exciting news?
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October 27, 2011 at 2:54 pm
Hi, Sonia! Exciting news? Hmmmm. Well, a few weeks ago Dunkle admitted that he used to be an abortion doctor and I announced that I would become pro-life if the money was right. Can’t think of anything else that is new 🙂
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October 27, 2011 at 4:14 pm
I would never admit that! Killer, yes. Doctor, no. Pat, how ’bout $1.95?
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October 26, 2011 at 2:22 pm
“this page” — where dat? You know I can’t resist!
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October 27, 2011 at 2:55 pm
John, when you read this article, dont you see a picture of a woman reading and with a martini glass in front of her???
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October 27, 2011 at 4:16 pm
Yeah, I finally figured it out, cause I was looking for something with me, me, me.
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February 12, 2014 at 3:30 am
Th’ats the best answer of all time! JMHO
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February 8, 2014 at 2:43 am
That in’gthiss just what I’ve been looking for. Thanks!
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October 26, 2011 at 12:08 pm
Yeah, the pictures are funny, i wonder where they find them… well, i know that there is a bunch of pictures online, but the seem to find the proper picture each and every time hun!!!!
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October 27, 2011 at 1:58 pm
Oh, these pictures, the ones Pat includes with his posts. Sure, they’re great.
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October 27, 2011 at 2:56 pm
Glad you can see them, John. But for the record, I do not put the pictures up, I wouldn’t know how to do it. It’s someone else in the blogosphere connected to my blogs…
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October 27, 2011 at 4:17 pm
Now I think a little less of you, just a smudge on the nugget though.
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October 26, 2011 at 3:49 pm
Pat,
Whatever happen to that lady who was pro life and use to comment everyday many times a day, I think her name is Deanna. Where is she?(If you know). What happen to her?
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October 26, 2011 at 4:49 pm
M, D was one of the those great prolife writers whose stuff I’ve saved. Why should she keep repeating herself! It’s called throwing pearls to the swine.
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October 27, 2011 at 6:08 am
Melissa, Deanna is a very energetic woman, of the “queen bee” variety, who perserveres to get her way in whatever she chooses. This is not a bad thing; it’s just her.
Unfortunately, she is afflicted by aborticentrism– for reasons she has never explored, abortion makes her feel extremely uncomfortable. Since she is habituated to getting her way, she works to eliminate abortion so that she will feel better. In order to do that, she has to rely on false and misleading information which she promotes in her self-therapy.
She ihas adopted six kids, but she will not take on the child she doesn’t want to, contrary to her expectatons of all pregnant women. She denies that she is anti-abortion only as long as it’s convenient to her time, talents and money, just like all the rest of them. She dropped out at the end of August to hom e school her kids. She still checks in on this site, so yiou can say hi to her, and she’ll read it.
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October 27, 2011 at 7:02 am
“for reasons she has never explored, abortion [the torturing to death of young people] makes her feel extremely uncomfortable.”
I think Chuck’s nailed it. Yes, that’s how that practice makes us pro-lifers feel. And that feeling causes us to say a few rosaries and join a few organizations and donate a little time and money. Thus we find that we can live with something that should not be tolerated.
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October 27, 2011 at 9:31 am
I liked Deanna, even thought we don’t see eye to eye on many things.
I am pro choice and not pro death and I believe that our opinions change according to the situation you are in. Today I support the woman right to choose what is best for her but that is not to say I support the killing of the “fetus” in her womb. I support the decision she makes for her life but she is the one who will have to deal with the fact that she killed part of her.
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October 27, 2011 at 9:46 am
“I am pro choice and not pro death…” — nah, what you are, A, is confused.
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October 27, 2011 at 10:07 am
So, what is it about abortion that you don’t like, anonymous?
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October 27, 2011 at 10:14 am
I DON’T LIKE ABORTIONS AT ALL, PERIOD, but I don’t want to tell someone how to live their lives. If women feel that they can’t keep her pregnancy for one reason or another who am I to have a saying in it?
John Dunkle got me. I am confused!
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October 27, 2011 at 10:18 am
I guess I am having a Herman Cain moment! LOL
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October 27, 2011 at 11:33 am
What is it about abortions that you don’t like?
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October 27, 2011 at 12:18 pm
that fact that it kills something.
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October 28, 2011 at 8:14 am
Well, another Anonymous decides not to explore his feelings about abortion. Three days since I ask “why does that bother you?” and no reply….. Operating at a near-limbic level.
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October 27, 2011 at 1:47 pm
Why does that bother you?
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October 27, 2011 at 3:01 pm
Does anyone really like “killing” something?
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October 27, 2011 at 4:49 pm
A friend who was a Marine said that killing the first person is unsettling, killing the second one is less so, and by the time you get to your fourth or fifth, you’ve developed the mindset to do it.
The so-called “pro-life” crowd counts on our uneasiness about death in general to use the term as a meme– if they can get the populace to focus on killing rather than the paramount need to care for real children, they succeed in their dysfunctional twelve-step program to deal with their own fear of death.
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October 27, 2011 at 2:58 pm
You are pro-choice but do not support “the killing of the fetus in her womb.” Uh, my friend, you got some work to do. Think it through a little!
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February 9, 2014 at 3:46 pm
You cod’lnut pay me to ignore these posts!
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October 27, 2011 at 1:49 pm
But not live with the child you want to believe you “rescued.” Get out just before the hard stuff starts, eh, Mr. Dunkle?
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October 27, 2011 at 2:08 pm
OK, OK, — A, one of Chuck’s pro-death arguments is that you should not try to save someone’s life unless you are willing and able to spend at least half a million dollars to support her afterwards.
Yeah, I know. And his others are equally absurd. For example, you should not try to save someone’s life because Mr. Dunkle and my father are mentally ill. I’m not denying the mental illness; I’m just saying that’s a poor reason for killing an innocent third party. And here’s another . . . oh well forget it. You get the picture.
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October 27, 2011 at 2:59 pm
I think the fee is now up to at least one million dollars because of inflation…..
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October 28, 2011 at 8:12 am
Nah, the cost of raising just one child to the point of graduating from technical college is not a million, Pat; it’s only the price of a Lamborghini.
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October 27, 2011 at 2:55 pm
Mr. Dunkle doesn’t care how much cruelty a person has to endure in life; he’s not going to use any of his money or time to treat them as a fellow human being. They’re just another notch on his gun butt of heroism.
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September 24, 2013 at 7:40 pm
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February 9, 2014 at 6:09 pm
There is a critical shortage of inavomftire articles like this.
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October 27, 2011 at 12:26 pm
I hear you anonymous. I feel the same way sometimes.
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October 27, 2011 at 12:35 pm
This conversation is so annoyng. Why should people defend the right to kill another being. It is ridiculous.
I do support the right to choose but it should not be anybody’s business but of the person(women) making the choice.
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October 27, 2011 at 1:45 pm
Kalli, unless you’re a vegan, you are responsible for the deaths of a lot of beings taht go into your diet. We almost all have a certain level of tolerance for killing.
The so-called “pro-lifers,” however, use the term to force women to have and raise babies they are not prepared or equipped to care for. Would that the so-called “pro-lifers” undertake to raise the children themselves! But they almost always walk away at the door to the delivery room.
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February 8, 2014 at 12:35 am
Hi there, i just read your website from time to time i poessss a equivalent a single and that i was just wondering when you get plenty of unsolicited mailreplies? In that case how do you avoid this, any kind of extension or evenwhatever you can recommend? I recieve a great deal recently it is traveling myself nutsthus any kind of assist is appreciated.
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October 27, 2011 at 1:37 pm
I see that nothing has changed…
Pat, as always i got to say that you have a thing for writing.
I enjoy reading your posts, specially because 99% of the time these posts make me go on search of more info on the subject and although i have not change my way of thinking, it is interesting how much we can learn…
Thanks!
🙂
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October 27, 2011 at 3:03 pm
Thanks, Sonia. There is word that the Pulitzer Committee is reviewing my stuff for a possible award. Indeed, while I normally write one a week every Monday morning, I just wrote another one because I’ll be gone for four days. Going up to New York for an Italian wedding, the best kind!!
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October 27, 2011 at 4:22 pm
That’s OK. But no funny stuff. Ninety percent of the killers and their helpers live in Manhattan.
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