You gotta love the American Civil Liberties Union.
For many, many years, the political right wing has pounded them over and over again to the point where there came a time when few people would admit they were “card carrying members of the ACLU.” Indeed, the last time I heard any reference to the ACLU cards was in that great speech by Michael Douglas in “The American President” where he smacks his conservative opponent for NOT being a member of the ACLU. Brings tears to my eyes.
And although being a member of the ACLU may not be as much in vogue as it used to, it’s great to see that are still fighting the good fight. It seems that last Thursday the ACLU of North Carolina filed a lawsuit against the state to force it to produce one of those “specialty license plates” that support abortion rights. This is in response to some action last June when the state legislature authorized the issuance of a “Choose Life” license plate. During the debate, several pro-choice legislators offered amendments to allow for other plates with messages like “Trust Women” or “Respect Choice” but I guess the anti-abortion legislators were in no mood to be fair, so they defeated all of the amendments. The ACLU, in its lawsuit, is now arguing that the First Amendment does not allow a state to promote “one side of a debate while denying the same opportunity to the other side.” Interestingly, they added that their position would have been the same “if the state had authorized a pro-choice license plate but not an anti-choice alternative.”
I’m trying to think this one through a little. So, if the state of New York had voted to allow a “Support Abortion” license plate and rejected any attempts to authorize a pro-life plate, the ACLU would have filed a lawsuit on behalf of the pro-life movement demanding that the state authorize a plate for their side? Now, I know that the ACLU has stuck its neck out defending the KKK in free speech cases and other controversial, conservative clients, but why do I find it hard to believe that they would have run to the aid of the pro-life movement? If anything, that would have created an interesting scenario and I chuckle thinking of the rather testy meetings of the pro-choice coalition after they learned that the ACLU would be
spending its money defending the anti-abortion crowd.
As for this case, let me remind you that I am not a lawyer. Oh, I went to law school for one year which gave me some very basic understanding of the law but I left to take a job on Capitol Hill (and the rest is history). But I guess I’m wondering what the big fuss is all about? I ask because, if you really think about can you remember the last time you saw a car with a “specialty” license plate on it? And, let’s face it. Most folks, unless they are a little kooky, are not gonna go around advertising how they feel about the friggin abortion issue, are they? I am as pro-choice as they come, but I would never think about putting a pro-choice license plate on my car. If anything, I would be very concerned that some anti-abortion nut ball would see my car and have a little fun with it. I prefer to advertise my pro-choice credentials when I am questioning a candidate or when someone makes a simple statement that I disagree with. Indeed, I always look forward to asking a candidate how they feel about the abortion issue because ninety nine percent of them don’t even want to talk about it and, when forced to, it’s fun watching them squirm.
So, I applaud the ACLU for taking this action, for fighting the good fight. But if they lose, it’s a signal to the rest of the state legislatures that are considering taking similar action that they don’t have to worry about being “fair” and, if they win, how many people really will put a pro-choice license plate on their car? I would hope it would be a lot, but I’m just a little cynical. But, yes, I still have my twenty year old ACLU card!



September 12, 2011 at 1:44 pm
Sadly, the antichoice plates raise a lotta money for Crisis Pregnancy Centers… The antis just love parading their so-called love of life on any and all surfaces.
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 8:22 am
How do you know, Anonymous, that they raise a “lot of money?” I really wonder sometimes if they are a good fundraiser cause I never see the plates myself. Do you have any reports or something? Thanks
LikeLike
September 12, 2011 at 2:16 pm
I used to put pro-life bumper stickers on my car. Until a lady in Queens tapped me, well, more than tapped, as I was making a turn. I took them off fast! Course that was back in NYC where the crazies thrive. Out here in Pensatucky people are normal.
Now if we could just get Hollywood to hire Douglas to push prolife.
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 8:24 am
C’mon, John, that sounds like a stretch. Do you really think that she “tapped” you because of your bumper sticker? And be careful, I’m from New York! Meanwhile, however, I pictured you driving a beat up Chevy station wagon with dozens of bumper stickers all over the car…
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 11:04 am
That is all all I can see, is him driving a Forrest green and wooden trim station wagon running from that lady. Do you really think it was the bumper sticker though?
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 12:07 pm
Andrew,
John Dunkle drives a BMW, 2010
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 12:09 pm
Andrew,
John drives a BMW, 2010
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 1:48 pm
“C’mon, John, that sounds like a stretch. Do you really think that she “tapped” you because of your bumper sticker?”
Sorry, I should have gone into detail. She “tapped” me three times in succession. After the second one, I turned and saw her finger and heard her screaming. And my one sticker was was very gentle, something Mother Theresa said, I believe.
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 9:58 am
Do you really drive a 2010 BMW??
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 10:09 am
No, a ’96 Ford Ranger (pick-up) with 225 and counting. The only ones who like the Easter-egg-purple color are Fabalina, my youngest granddaughter, and me.
LikeLike
September 12, 2011 at 3:37 pm
I used to tuck my “pro-life shopping list’ under the windshield wiper of any car with a “Choose Life” specialty tag.
I have always loved those Florida “Choose Life” plates, because they commemorate Louise Cowell’s (forced) choice to give birth to and to raise Ted Bundy, whose last six victims were in their state. I think of that Florida plate as the Ted Bundy Commemorative Edition. Go thou and do likewise.
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 8:25 am
The Florida plates “commemorated” Ted Bundy’s birth? I am assuming this is a tongue in cheek comment. Meanwhile, did you ever get anywhere by putting your list under those windshields??
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 8:39 am
Necver got a cent for a child or family in need. When possible,I will mention to a driver with a Florida license plate that he’s commemorating Ted Bundy. It leads to very interesting (and confirmatory) conversations.
I’ll find the shopping list and bring it around….
LikeLike
September 12, 2011 at 3:49 pm
I’m a Guardian, card-toting member of the ACLU and have been for several years. I admire what the ACLU does and how they represent fairness.
However, I’m not inclined to put any bumper stickers on my car for the very reason you mention, Pat. There are enough loose cannons out there who would not give a second thought about retaliating against any car with messages that are offensive to them.
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 8:27 am
What do ya mean, Kate, when you say you are a “Guardian”? Meanwhile, I forgot to mention that when we were drafting the FACE law, the ACLU insisted on language that made it clear that the anti abortion folks had the right to protest. Kudos to them….
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 8:55 am
It’s simply a donor level term that the ACLU uses for it’s membership.
LikeLike
September 12, 2011 at 6:00 pm
“There are enough loose cannons out there who would not give a second thought about retaliating against any car with messages that are offensive to them.”
And yet you’ll expose your body, Kate, several times a week, even though “there are enough loose cannons out there who would not give a second thought about retaliating against any person with messages that are offensive to them”? Doesn’t figure. Moral: when you tell enough lies, you’ll eventually have no idea what truth is.
LikeLike
September 12, 2011 at 8:11 pm
John,
Let me be clear that my response has nothing to do with the ACLU. [Sorry Pat for this absurd diversion] However, I have to say that your comments make no sense to me, strike me as veiled threats and project your own shortcomings about your inability to discriminate truth from lie.
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 4:42 am
You’re absolutely right. Damaging a car is miles away from damaging a person. (Mighta been a martini.)
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 9:48 am
“absurd diversion”…
That made me laugh out loud Kate, because it’s so true of the comments on this blog. You never know where you may end up!
John…
While I assume you had no ulterior motives, I will say that I thought the same thing as I read your comment. I abhor what Kate stands for, and I find her obnoxious, but I don’t wish her dead. I am against planting thoughts in the heads of crazies. I am against it in movies, music, games, books, and now blog comments.
I know, though rarely admit out loud, that pro-choicers act out of a belief in the rights of a woman over her own body, not out of a desire to kill children. I also believe that that comes from a need for God coupled with worldly thinking that always, always puts “me” first.
Jesus came to seek and save those who are lost, not kill them. Yes, I also understand that babies are being killed. They will continue to be killed unless we change either the law, the person, or both. Occasionally killing the random abortion provider does nothing but prove that the killer wasn’t “really” pro-life, cause even stricter laws to be passed limiting us even more, and making us all look like backwoods crazies. It hurts the cause so much that it actually results in MORE babies being killed. FACE is a good example. Yes, I also know that the abortion providers aren’t innocent. But I am not for vigilantism. If you want to start an uprising leading to another civil war, I’ll be on board, but only something on as massive a scale as that would ever hope to work.
Again, I am assuming you meant no veiled threat.
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 9:59 am
Nunya: I very much appreciate this post!
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 10:43 am
So do I. Although 95% of us prolifers are against the minimal use of force (Rescue) and 99% plus are against the maximum (killing the baby killer), I have never been able to get one of them to write down her or his opinion. Since my newsletter is most concerned with that part of the legal baby killing issue, and since many entries there have supported the use of force (three in the September issue alone), I am most thankful for NY’s comment, which I’ll post in the October issue, out next week.
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 8:12 am
John,
To be be clear.
You actually celebrate and call the people who murdered doctors who perform abortions martyrs. Correct?
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 10:24 pm
Incorrect, I call Paul Hill a martyr because he was martyred for saving the lives of twenty young people.
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 8:40 am
Translation: “Kin I play? Kin I play? Huh? Huh? Kin I play?”
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 8:30 am
I would like to think that I would not be personally harmed if I had a bumper sticker or license plate indicating I was pro-choice. I was thinking that if a nutty person saw my car in a parking lot and it was nice and dark, well, then they might have a little fun with the car.
So, Kate, do you have any bumper stickers on your car indicating you are pro-choice?
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 8:54 am
I have no stickers of any kind except my parking sticker for work.
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 12:12 pm
The only stickers Kate has are the ones in her car.
KEEP ABORTION LEGAL
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 3:49 pm
It’s a poster from the Feminist Majority. The only thing it sticks on is your nerves.
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 5:51 pm
Ooh, she caught you, didn’t she, Kate, so you had to use the old ad hom (or has that been changed these days to ad fem).
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 9:17 pm
I find your feminine pronomial reference to “anonmoyous” rather curious. Do you know something about this poster you’d like to share, o sly and foxy Mr. Dunkle?
LikeLike
September 15, 2011 at 10:49 am
Hey Bo, you’re clever. Yeah, I do, but not share. And “foxy”! Me! You been talking to Sharon Davis?
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 3:09 pm
Wrong again Kate, it will take more than you than to my nerves agitated. You are at the bottom of the heap not deserving of any notice at all.
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 8:19 am
Anonymous,
Do you believe women have the right to choose any hormonal Birth Control Method (or the IUD) legally available in the US?
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 10:00 am
Dont they have inspection stickers up there? 🙂
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 6:29 am
In the early 80’s we wanted a bumper sticker that just said “PRO-CHOICE”
Most of the “southern belle’s” didn’t want to advertise any organization that didn’t (in their opinion…sound very lady like..LOL)!!! So in order to get their point of view…out into the public…. also to start the conversation…I had some bumper stickers printed that simply (in large print) said “PRO-CHOICE”..We also gave one to a patient if they promised to use them!
My husband thought for my safety…I shouldn’t bring any more attention to my car!! (At that time I had a “stalker protester!!) But of course…I didn’t listen!! I proudly displayed it in the window of my car!! OPPS!! Of course…you guessed it!! I drove to the mall…came out…one long keyed line..from one end of my car to the other and on the hood “bitch” and on the trunk “killer”!!! (Don’t you hate it when your spouse is right??) LOL
I do think however that the state should NOT enter into this debate by “making plates” or displaying anything as controversial as the abortion issue!! (There is a place for the state to debate…the bumper on your car is NOT it!!) There are more people out there waiting to damage our cars..
just like “my idiot protestor”…wait…aren’t we looking for a permanent solution to the job loss situation?? BY GOSH!! I think we may have it…
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 9:46 am
It’s always great to have your perspective, Lorraine, as one who was in the trenches for so many years. We all like to opine about this issue but things are always a little different on the ground floor….
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 11:24 am
It mighta happened, LDM!!!! But it don’t ring true!!!!!
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 8:25 am
I agree. The state should not be in the Private label license plate business. Especially as they manage it now.
I also was a victim of pro life abuse. I had a pro choice bumper sticker on my car and within hours of putting it on someone had beat my bumper ($800 in damage) while my car was parked with something that must have been as strong as a hammer or steel rod.
Why are ProLifers so consistently violent?
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 12:46 pm
They’re not consistently violent, Michael. Actually, since the thrust of the dysfunctional self-help movement is to give them a feeling of potency over Death, their propensity to violence is inversely proportional to their feeling of powerlessness: Somebody like WASP Bill Buckley, Ivy League legacy student, born and raised in wealth and accepted in the best circles, had no need to go beyond writing about the evils of abortion. Somebody like Randall Terry, lower middle class angry high school student, overcompensates by encouraging violence as he works to prove to himself his potency. (Well, he proved it on a number of female followers, too…) And a loser like Scott Roeder proves his potency by committing murder because he has no other social skills to employ in that proof.
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 10:27 pm
Michael, it don’t ring true, and Chuck, give it up.
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 10:22 am
The ACLU side of abortion has been an interesting series. We know that free speech give prolife activists the privilege of saying pretty much whatever they want outside abortion clinics. But then some take their free speech rights a bit too far. Flip Benham found out that posting wanted posters and stalking doctors is not very nice and can get you into trouble with the law. There’s obviously a very fine line that he crossed. So now I’m wondering what will happen to others who use essentially the same tactics as Benham in their attempt to kick out Dr. Leroy Carhart in Maryland. The kickoutcarhart.com organization along with the MD Coalition for Life have been so unsuccessful in removing Carhart that their expanding their threats to the landlord, Todd Stave. They now protest with their huge banners at a middle school where Stave is the principal and they inundate him with phone calls at his private residence. That seems so much like they’re crossing the line. I’m waiting to see what the ACLU does in Maryland.
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 10:52 am
It is a fight to the death, isn’t it. We won’t stop till everyone whom it is now legal to kill is protected and those trying to kill her are punished; you won’t stop till everyone accepts not only the legality but the goodness of allowing a pregnant woman to have someone kill the baby she’s carrying. I say, go “kickcarhartout”!
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 10:05 am
What your side doesn’t understand, John, is that oftentimes these demonstrations, etc. often embolden the doctor and staff. There is no way Lee Carhart will drop his practice, if that is the goal here. Or perhaps it is just to have something to do on a Saturday and maybe get a little press attention?
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 10:16 am
No Pat, it isn’t just something to do. It also “emboldens” the apathetic pro-lifers out there our of their complacency, at least for a little while.
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 11:15 am
“There is no way Lee Carhart will drop his practice, if that is the goal here.”
You might believe this, Pat, but don’t say it. You just might cause the bottled up frustration of some prolifer to burst. How many times did you read this: “There is no way George Tiller will drop his practice, if that is the goal here”?
LikeLike
September 15, 2011 at 9:02 am
Point taken, John. But even Lee says the same thing. It’s all very scary…
LikeLike
September 15, 2011 at 9:59 am
I don’t get why you guys support Carhart with all of his legal problems and the reports from women (sworn affidavits) who say he is careless and basically a slum doctor. Is it because you are friends? If so then is that a good enough reason to support him with all of the evidence that he is close to being Bingham? I don’t get it.
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 6:53 am
“VOICE”…I think you should be careful abt all the insinuations that you are making about Dr. Carhart!! Sounds like you are repeating gossip…rather than some facts!!
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 9:16 am
No they are not insinuations. He is being investigated for all of the above.
He is being investigated by the Maryland Board of Physicians for lying on his medical license application. He indicated he was an emergency room physician and university professor. In reality, Carhart has not had an affiliation with a hospital since 1987, and was stripped of any formal duties with the University of Nebraska in the late 1990s.
Carhart’s Maryland application also omits his decades of job history as owner and abortionist at the Abortion and Contraceptive Clinic in Bellevue, Nebraska, and 12 years of employment at Women’s Health Care Services in Wichita, Kansas, where he specialized in late-term abortions.
conducts risky late-term abortions in Maryland without hospital privileges.
He also has a history of involvement in multiple botched late-term abortions during his employment in Kansas, including the third trimester death of 19-year old Christin Gilbert.
He is also under criminal investigation in Nebraska by the Nebraska Attorney General’s office based on a complaint that contained several affidavits from former employees making allegations of illegal activity at his Bellevue, Nebraska, clinic including manipulating ultrasounds to make the fetal age appear younger than it actually was so that he could do an abortion. There are also sworn affidavits from several women who aborted at his clinic and claim that he did illegal abortions on them.
I have links to documentation including the complaints and the women’s testimony’s if anyone wants to see them.
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 11:45 am
There’s a film out there someplace that adds to v’s indictment:
“Today Kathy emailed nine people a twenty-five minute video produced last June by NOW about the harm activist prolifers do to the abortion movement. ‘Abortion Providers Under Siege’ features long interviews with two men, Leroy Carhart and Warren Hern, who specialize in torturing to death babies shortly before birth and who come across as ghoulish characters. No wonder NOW never aired it. According to the video, activists include not only people like Scott Roeder, who killed George Tiller, but like Kathy herself, who talk to women entering the mills. NOW thinks the latter are responsible for the former – more proof that Kathy neither reads, looks at, nor thinks about the things she emails.
I don’t know how Kathy Kuhns was able to get hold of this video, but she emailed it and I saw it.
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 8:32 am
John,
Do you think Scott Roeder (the person that murdered Dr. Tiller in Church) is a good person?
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 10:30 pm
Yes. (Omit what’s in parentheses)
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 10:03 am
Geez, Kate, I wouldn’t have mentioned the landlord’s name on this blog. Who the heck knows who is reading this? But, yes, the question of whether or not they can protest in front of a school is an interesting one. I find it totally repulsive but my first reaction is that they should be allowed to do it. The problem is when you start setting lines, those lines can keep getting bigger and bigger. Before you know it, it might come around to bite the pro-choice movement in the butt….
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 10:14 am
Slippery slopes abound. I am always for civil disobedience and protesting. It is a valid way to keep an issue polarized in the minds of the public. To do it in front of a school only gives the children food for thought. It’s certainly no worse than teaching sex ed to first graders.
LikeLike
September 15, 2011 at 9:04 am
Give kids “food for thought?” Do you really support holding those gross signs out in front of a school, Nunya? Should those who oppose the war hold up signs showing the bodies of dead soldiers? Should pro-choicers show them the bodies of the women who died from self induced abortions? Dont the kids deserve a little “space” from the harsh realities of this world?
LikeLike
September 15, 2011 at 10:02 am
I think you are right about that one. If it were my kids I would be upset because I am the one who determines what my kids know when. However, I think the line is drawn when the kids are old enough to get an abortion. If they are old enough to get one then they are old enough to know the realities of it. If it’s a high school or middle school I say go for it. An elementary school, no.
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 9:50 am
We agree, Voice! Hurrah! But re Carhart, when you get the chance I’d like to see some citations but please keep in mind that abortion doctors are continually having to defend themselves from lawsuits that were started by pro-lifers. Indeed, LIfe Dynamics for years had a campaign urging their followers to bring lawsuits against the doctors. The key is did the state do something about it after their investigation. Lee Carhart is fortunately no Steve Brigham. And while Lee is a friend, I do not defend him because of that. If Lee were doing something that truly violated some rules or regulations, then the appropriate action should be taken. But so much of this stuff is politically motivated, it’s hard to seperate the fact from the fiction. Thanks
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 3:10 pm
I must have missed something before I replied. I read “protesting”. I am not for the gross signs and bad behavior. I do believe that the information should be available pertaining to what an abortion actually entails, but not plastered on posters, and certainly not in front of elementary schools. I’ve already stated that I didn’t hold the gruesome posters when I “picketed” abortion clinics years ago. As voice pointed out, elementary kids are taught sex education in school, PP is teaching them they may be ready for sex, and some elementary age girls are able to become pregnant. But pro-lifers should use discretion in what type of signs they hold, and in their actions and words in front of those children. I also agree with Pat, as I’ve stated before, that limiting our freedoms is a slippery slope.
LikeLike
February 9, 2014 at 1:37 pm
It’s a plsreuae to find someone who can identify the issues so clearly
LikeLike
February 8, 2014 at 8:54 pm
The paragon of unnnastrddieg these issues is right here!
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 11:14 am
It’s still one of the worst forms of harassment so close to stalking, but your right tho dunkle we are not stopping any time soon just signed a petition to get planned parenthood back in my neighborhood !!
The ACLU is one of the coolest, scariest organizations, helping the kkk and all but in fairness alike why would anyone rock a plate of that manner? I would be afraid to be attacked, if people will stalk and kill people of this profession than supporters, in My opinion are just as likely susceptible.
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 10:18 am
If I was a rabid, card carrying abortionist I would be for PP. Don’t ask me to clarify, just research it and it’s origins for yourself.
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 10:19 am
I meant WOULDN’T be for PP.
LikeLike
September 15, 2011 at 9:06 am
I know what you’re getting at when you refer to PP’s “origins” and from what I’ve heard/read, there were some sketchy things said in those days. But I cannot hold that against them now, they do more to stop abortions that any other institution in this country…
LikeLike
September 15, 2011 at 10:04 am
Yeah, like encouraging free sex, giving out low dose birth control pills that fail as well as cheap condoms that break. Sounds like they are doing their share in the abortion war.
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 9:51 am
Okay…how does PPFA “encourage free sex”???
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 10:11 am
By telling kids things like this from their teen website:
People who care about and trust each other become intimate — close. But sex is just one part of a whole relationship. It’s just one way to be intimate.
How about the other aspects of your relationship?
Do you treat each other as equals?
Do you trust each other?
Are you honest with each other?
Do you respect each other’s needs and feelings?
Do you care about each other?
Do you share similar interests and values?
Do you have fun together?
Do you both accept responsibility for what you do?
Do you both want to have sex at this time?
And this one is the kicker….
“If these things are true about your relationship, you may be ready to have sex.”
Um…NO! There is no twelve/thirteen fourteen/fifteen year old on the planet who is “ready’ to have sex. Sex leads to pregnancy and grown up decisions that children are not ready to cope with. The above reasons for “being ready” to have sex are not good enough for any child. It is infuriating that they teach these things to children. Why not say something like “Sex is an adult activity that should be waited for UNTIL you are an adult in and adult relationship? This same website claims that most teens are not having sex so why encourage the others that they are “ready”?
This same website gives information about a girls first period ans explains to boys all about their bodies making it clear that they cater to younger teens and even children. Some girls start their periods as young as 8 and 9 years old. So they are basically telling children and young teens that they “may be ready for sex.”
Planned Parenthood breeds irresponsibility.
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 11:53 am
This conversation goes into “November,” starting with Pat’s “I know what.”
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 7:52 pm
Anthropologists say that given the mores of the Hebrews at the time, it was quite likely that the Mother of God was right around 14 years old when she became pregnant.
Isn’t it advisable to have 14-year-olds know that sex is more than just getting it on with a partner?
If I remember rightly, Maya Angelou satisfied her curiosity about sex without a speck of corollary information at that time. And it took about ninety seconds. I think PP would have been a far better way to go about it. PP did a lot better for my middle-school-age son and his friends.
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 9:12 am
So you DO think it is ok for PP to teach 8,9,10,11,12, 13,14,15 year olds that they “May be ready for sex” ?
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 12:38 pm
If my child is going to be sneaking around behind my back engaging in sexual activity, I really, really want him/her to be aware of all the information Planned Parenthood has.
An additional benefit of children knowing this information is that they become aware of when they are likely to be victimized. At age 18, I had no idea why an older man on a bus had his hand on my thigh for what seemed an eternity. Thank you, Catholic sex ed!
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 3:24 pm
Yes, Chuck, I too believe that kids should be taught that sex is more than “just getting it on with your partner.” I also believe that they should be taught that it should be saved for their marriage partner. (Silly, I know) At the least, they should be taught to save it till they are adults, much the same way we would advise them to save marriage until they are adults. We would never teach children that they “may” be ready for marriage at 13, 14 or even 15, yet we think it’s okay for PP to teach them that they may be ready for sex. PP should teach it from the standpoint of education, with a bent toward the negative aspects at an early age, at the VERY least.
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 3:54 pm
The question, NunYa, is how to get kids to understand the risks! We don’t teach them; they learn by putting things together in a way that makes sense to them.
Like the menarchal 12-year-old who worriedly reported to her mother that her first period had stopped.
The mother asked her why she was worried, and the daughter said, “You never told me it was supposed to STOP!”
So, we give PP the support they need to get the best info out there, and then we hope for the best….
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 5:43 pm
Ah, Voice, you’re such a silly billy.
Do you really believe PP encourages free sex? On site or otherwise?
Do you really believe PP “gives out” BCPs? You do know they are prescription drugs, right?
Do you really believe PP hands out cheap condoms? Are you a condom connoisseur?
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 10:38 pm
“At age 18, I had no idea why an older man on a bus had his hand on my thigh for what seemed an eternity. Thank you, Catholic sex ed!”
Chuck, comeon, You’ve got serious problems. Parents and one child who turned on you, and absolutely no friends growing up, so that at 18 you hadn’t a clue. Don’t you think you should live quietly, meditate, and try to heal rather than invent a crazy mental illness theory and try to tell the world how to live?
LikeLike
September 18, 2011 at 8:55 am
Bonzo,
If you believe the reports of former PP employees, which I do, then yes, PP does all of that and more.
LikeLike
February 9, 2014 at 4:19 am
This is the perfect way to break down this inniomatorf.
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 3:26 pm
ACLU is right to be defending abortion rights
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 5:09 pm
The Washington Post picked up the story about the drama in MD.
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 10:07 am
The Post loves writing about Lee Carhart…Interestingly, another pro-life organization condemned the protest in front of the school!
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 11:16 am
Why were they?
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 3:25 pm
I mean, who were they?
LikeLike
September 15, 2011 at 9:07 am
I dont have the article in front of me, John. I”m sure you can google it. But, yes, it was a group I’ve never heard of that said they did NOT support being in front of the school…
LikeLike
September 15, 2011 at 10:00 am
Probably Kate Ranieri and her crew pretending.
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 7:34 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/anti-abortion-protesters-target-clinics-landlord-outside-childs-md-school/2011/09/12/gIQAn8z2NK_story.html
LikeLike
September 29, 2011 at 6:40 pm
Thanks, Kate. This guy rents to baby killers and his father did too! Or was his father a killer? A little confusing. But for sure the guy should be confronted both at his home and his place of work. Michael Martelli and his Maryland Coalition are “prolife butts.” I meet them all the time, especially in front of Jen’s house. “Prolife butts” are more responsible for the murders than are the outfight killers’ helpers, by a long shot. Let me tell him that.
LikeLike
September 13, 2011 at 5:10 pm
Here’s the link
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/anti-abortion-protesters-target-clinics-landlord-outside-childs-md-school/2011/09/12/gIQAn8z2NK_story.html
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 6:05 am
http://www.alternet.org/story/152374/anti-choice_zealots_go_after_clinic_owner%27s_children_–_here%27s_how_he%27s_fighting_back/?page=entire
LikeLike
February 9, 2014 at 1:35 pm
Of the panoply of website I’ve pored over this has the most veaiyrtc.
LikeLike
March 11, 2014 at 9:23 am
Articles like this just make me want to visit your website even more.
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 9:40 am
I don’t really care about organizations defending the right to kill another human being. That is just sick and awful. Organizations as such should be working towards us having a better quality of life.
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 9:45 am
I have to kind of agree with you.
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 9:56 am
Thank you. I know you are not pro life but I can tell you have some sense.
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 10:08 am
Then maybe the National Right to Life Committee should start lobbying for a better quality of life as well? There are thousands of organizations, each one is trying to fill a certain niche…
LikeLike
February 9, 2014 at 2:51 pm
This shows real exsiptere. Thanks for the answer.
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 7:35 pm
Sick and awful?
Care to quantify, qualify? Or would you rather drag on with the emotional dreck that helps no one/
LikeLike
September 16, 2011 at 7:45 pm
Self-proclaimed “pro-lifers” call a fetus a human being for the public relations value. They don’t look very heroic if they have to admit they’re intending to rescue something with the intelligence of a lizard. They overplay human development to a dishonest extent in order to get your sympathy aroused.
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 2:40 pm
Chuck, your statements here are very contradictory. First you state that we “call” a fetus a human being for x reason, indicating that it isn’t a human being. Then you call it “something,” then you say that we overplay “human” development. Which is it?
LikeLike
September 14, 2011 at 9:02 pm
I realize that the banter/dialogue/conversation/spew/rant has come to a screeching halt. It seems to me that if prochoicers disengage, prolifers become like balloons with puncture holes.
Thus, in the spirit of agitation, I offer yet another absurd diversion:
Click to access nyu_review.pdf
LikeLike
September 15, 2011 at 11:34 am
You guys never get tired of saying the same BS?
Come on change the words, say something more valuable!
LikeLike
September 15, 2011 at 8:11 pm
well whats your standing, your interpretation of this levy scaled opposition towards abortion and the constituents that follow BIBA! 🙂
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 12:35 pm
I would recommend to all that every time they see a driver with a “Choose Life” license plate, that they praise him for his concern for human life and ask him to commit financially to one of the following needs faced by most newborns:
Infant formula for one year: $1500
Pampers to age 2 1/2: $4140
3 Meals a day, 1-5 years old: $4900
Immunizations to age 5: $602
Well-child checkups to 5: $1220
State protection from abuse to age 7: $34,116
Foster child care payments to age 5: $50.437
28-day detox program for pg woman: $14,800
Lead eradication for a child’s home; $45,400
Embryo transplant to prevent abortion: $45,400
Pre-eclampsia care in-hospital, 20 days: $41,900
20 days neonatal intensive care: $204,700
Baby-sitting cost to age six for working single parent: $68,000
Annual membership in your Right to Life group: $30
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Oh my God Chuck, you’re right! I never thought of if this way. I am now for killing these expensive children before they are born so that the parent doesn’t have to make a single sacrifice. God forbid, it might lead to personal growth, causing them to raise children rich in values like personal sacrifice, helping others in need, etc. That will never happen. All those “poor” women will definitely hate their children, abuse them and possibly turn them into serial killers. I’m surprised we’ve allowed the poor to procreate at all. Ooops, gotta go, I dropped my TRUST WOMEN! RESPECT WOMEN! poster.
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 2:49 pm
Oh, I meant to thank you for pointing out that we pro-lifers should be donating to causes and personally helping these women and children. No one does, after all.
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 3:33 pm
You do give, but at a level which is convenient for you rather than crucial for the child. One of the hallmarks of the self-proclaimed “pro-lifer” is the conservation of his own resources. Why might that be?
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 3:34 pm
Again, you’re into killing rather than caring. Point noted!
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 10:42 pm
“Point noted!” All you gotta do is tell Chuck what he’s doing wrong for him to do it endlessly.
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 3:48 pm
Poorly argued, NunYa. “Something” refers to the fetus which for most of its existence in the womb– and quite likely all of its existence in the womb– has only its limbic system– the reptilian part of the brain– close to maturity.
Your — and self-proclaimed “pro-lifer” lack of understanding human development is the other part of the problem. An impregnated ovum is not ready to ride a bicycle or write a poem. Human life is a spectrum, from the diploid organism to the moribund pantaloon. Until a point agreed upon by society, human life is “humanoid.” As “humanoid” is a subset of “human,” you ought to realize that it is technically correct to call a humanoid life form to be human, but not really accurate.
If you want to believe that a humanoid life form will become human, then you must pledge yourself to ensure that it is given the customary advantages to do so. Doing no more than keeping it alive is not sufficient.
As you well understand in refusing to let a stranger have your dog because he promises not to kill it.
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 4:17 pm
For some reason, I cannot “comment” right under the long post where Voice says PPFA is encouraging kids to have sex. On that stuff you cited, was there something before it that sais “attention 11 year olds – this is for you!” Is it not possible that PPFA is just putting out general information for people who – dare I say it – might be sexually active? Are they really ENCOURAGING kids to have sex or are they trying to educate those who might have sex? Do you honestly, honestly, honestly think that PPFA wants twelve year olds to have sex? Why the hell would they want to do that, Voice?
LikeLike
September 17, 2011 at 5:40 pm
They posted a list of criteria, none of which included being an adult, then basically said that if you meet the criteria you may be ready for sex. Not once did they discuss the fact that sex is an adult activity. By telling teens and younger children that they may be ready for sex they are encouraging it.(by virtue of the fact that they discuss first periods and changes during puberty we know they are addressing children as young as 8 and 9 years old.)
Why would they do this? They admit that kids are not sexually active so I have no idea why other than the fact that we have lost all morality in this country so who cares that 10 year old are fondling each other out by the swing set. I mean they are all a bunch of animals that can’t control themselves anyway, right?
LikeLike
September 18, 2011 at 4:35 am
Moreover, Pat, PP is a business. Their main source of income is killing people. Why wouldn’t they encourage that? Think they’re stupid?
LikeLike
September 18, 2011 at 8:57 am
True! They gotta dig up customers from somewhere.
LikeLike
September 18, 2011 at 11:23 am
I feel bad for people who are always so cynical..so, what you two guys are saying is that PPFA is putting stuff on brochures, websites, etc. in the hopes that it will encourage not just teenagers but all people to go out there and have sex so then they can come back to their clinics for abortions?? Are you guys for real???
LikeLike
September 18, 2011 at 1:54 pm
They don’t think like that; otherwise they wouldn’t be able to live with themselves. But that’s what they do.
LikeLike
September 18, 2011 at 12:14 pm
That bit about PP’s main source of income being from providing abortions is a lie, Mr. Dunkle. But you have to lie in order to make yourself look like a hero battling a great evil…..
LikeLike
September 18, 2011 at 1:58 pm
You may be right, Chuck, but I don’t think so. It’s either that or taxes. Let’s go to a third party — “Hey, somebody, does Planned Parenthood get more of its profits from killing or stealing?
LikeLike
September 18, 2011 at 11:35 am
BONZO to voice:
Planned Parenthood breeds irresponsibility. KINDA LIKE ANTI ABORTION PROTESTERS BREED IRRESPONSIBILITY WITH THEIR MISINFORMATION.
Not once did they discuss the fact that sex is an adult activity. OBVIOUSLY IT’S NOT AN ADULT ACTIVITY IF KIDS ARE DOING IT. KIDS HAVE SEX. BETTER TO BE ARMED WITH INFORMATION THAN ATTACKED BY THE MORALITY STORM TROOPERS
By telling teens and younger children that they may be ready for sex they are encouraging it. THIS IS AS VALID AS SAYING “BY TELLING THE PUBLIC THAT THEY MAY BE READY FOR SKY DIVING [or goey chocolate cookies or a race car or Budweiser) THEY ARE ENCOURAGING IT.” IN OTHER WORDS, A BIG BUNCH OF HOOEY.
who cares that 10 year old are fondling each other out by the swing set
IN WHAT AREA OF THE COUNTRY IS THIS EVEN PERMITTED (OR CONVENIENTLY OVERLOOKED)? THIS SOUNDS LIKE URBAN MYTHS CREATED BY THE MORALITY STORM TROOPERS MUCH LIKE THE IMPLANTED MEMORIES OF THOSE WHO REGRET THEIR ABORTION.
I mean they are all a bunch of animals that can’t control themselves anyway, right? SO YOU’RE SAYING THIS ABOUT CHILDREN? YOU’RE SAYING THIS ABOUT CHILDREN YOU ESPOUSE LOVE AND COMPASSION BEFORE THEY’RE BORN THEN BLAST THIS BROADSIDE CONDEMNATION. ISN’T THIS A BIT HYPOCRITICAL, EVEN JUST A TINY BIT?
LikeLike
September 18, 2011 at 2:01 pm
Bo, four paragraphs of nonsense and a fifth of stupidity
LikeLike