A Sort of Reintrodution
On a warm spring day in March of 1993, I sat outside the Humanities building of the University of Alabama at Birmingham studying for a Semantics final exam; meanwhile and probably simultaneously, my dad arrived at work, parked his car, started to head toward the door to the clinic where he practiced, and was assassinated by a Christian terrorist named Michael Griffin. After pumping three rounds into my dad’s back, Griffin promptly walked around to the front of the clinic where the typical and regular antis were gathered, and turned himself in to the police who arrived on the scene to break up the protest which I always believed was contemplated and coordinated by the protest organizers to serve as the diversion Griffin needed to pull off his assassination unimpeded.
Since my dad has the bitter designation of First Abortion Provider Assassinated, a media circus ensured after his assassination, and I ended up fighting a battle on my dad’s behalf with the dual intentions of drawing the public’s attention to the Christian terrorists and their horrible tactics as well as doing whatever I could to keep another doctor’s family from experiencing what mine did. I spent almost 10 years in the trenches, hitting any media outlet I could, speaking to whatever group would listen, and lobbying our government for action. I certainly was not alone in these actions, and through the efforts of Pat Richard’s organization NCAP as well as other Pro-Choice organizations, we won a major victory with the passage of the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Law which Pat and I watched President Clinton ultimately sign into law. Along the way, I married, had a child, and I reached a point where I had to pause my activism to raise a family which evolved to include a second child eight years after the first.
I recently reconnected with my old friend Pat Richards. We had a couple of phone conversations and swapped some emails which culminated in my being asked to provide some blog content which I am happy to do. In fact it is the least I can do and I have some sense of duty insofar as doing it is concerned. Now I’m a somewhat motivated person, but oftentimes I need a pressure point to get me off my arse. The arrangement between Pat and I results in my monthly blog contribution. Our project gives me the deadline I need to stress me to produce pages while at the same time gives me some encouragement to write the goddamned book I’ve been wanting to write for about 20 years now whose vague amoebic shapely mass lies somewhere between the brain cells you use daily, those that are reserved for recreational devastation, and those we can’t yet access but the Obama administration is currently making the Kennedian final frontier of R and D if you believe recent administration palaver.
I’m presently faced with the dilemma of which topics to cover, what salacious details to include, what to leave out to protect the guilty, how to make myself the Byronic hero shaking my fist at the heavens perched on a cliff façade, and where the hell to start.
I’ve been away for a few years so a reintroduction seemed like a decent initial post, but I do not know that I want to go the route of a typical linear biographical “I was the son of a share cropper” type format. What I’d really prefer is to utilize this opportunity to inspire me to do what I’ve been delaying for 20 years now and that’s write the goddamn book—in fact, I think if I finish it, that will be my title: The Goddamn Book by David Gunn, Jr. I think the folks in marketing could work wonders with such an appellation. It sure beats An American Tragedy or My Antonia or The Stand, or any title given to similar real-life tragicomic rehashing of events insofar as titles go in my opinion anyway.
Seriously, though, after my absence from the scene, if you will, and in light of Dr. Tiller’s recent assassination coupled with the renewed draconian Red State regulatory traps aimed at eliminating reproductive freedom by technicality rather than illegality, my desire to do something—and the something was some ambiguous uninformed action I could not label—led me to stumble upon Pat’s blog which allowed us to reconnect and brings us current while preserving the biographical fare for future posts which I hope will include some serial entries from The Goddamn Book I am now seriously starting to write and develop.
I am truly grateful for the opportunity Pat’s providing me and hopefully, we in the community who know the tragic and truly dangerous effects of living under constant threat while at the same time constantly remaining vigilant in our guarded responses to certain questions we get from normal folks—especially when you have kids cause you don’t want the response to negatively impact them indirectly—can become acquainted again, you’ll get something from my humble wordsmithery, and I may finally be able to cathart out The Goddamn Book I’ve been promising myself I will write for years. I’m looking forward to this new venture and am already finding it difficult to stop writing now that I’ve finally started. As of now, I resolve to contribute toward a solution to our problems in any small way that I can. I’ve grown weary of lacking conviction, and it is now time to confront those of the worst who have the passionate intensity desperately lacking on our side (thanks WBY).
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May 19, 2013 at 7:14 am
Welcome, David, to the blog. Writing posts for our readers is definitely a great way to clarify your thinking as you work toward your GD book. I’m looking forward to your monthly post.
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May 20, 2013 at 10:45 am
A GD great Blog!!
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May 19, 2013 at 9:55 am
Thanks for the response. I look forward to further posts.
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May 20, 2013 at 10:47 am
When are you posting your next blog article?
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May 21, 2013 at 9:44 am
Wilson, Im working with David re his schedule. We’re planning on once a month but may go more frequently if David can find the time!
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May 19, 2013 at 12:23 pm
David…those of us from… that point in time feel as though you are “our” son!! My (our) heart broke for you and your sister during that horrible time in history…the way you stood tall and spoke up for what your father Dr. David Gunn did every day to help… desperate women obtain SAFE & LEGAL ABORTIONS…made your father proud (I am sure!) I feel you made most of the nation proud!! Thank you for deciding to do this blog!! I look forward to reading what you have to say!!
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May 19, 2013 at 12:47 pm
Lorraine,
Thank you for your kind words. I never felt it was much of an option as to whether or not to speak out. I’m just regretful, in some respects, that I stopped for the time that I did. With everything happening to restrict access, I felt a renewed duty to speak out as we need to forcibly make a united stand against the antis who want to take away reproductive freedom.
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May 21, 2013 at 7:08 pm
lorriepoo, you are without a doubt one of the most gracious loving people that i have ever had the good fortune to encounter.
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May 19, 2013 at 1:20 pm
Welcome to a new voice for sanity. You, who have been so painfully impacted by anti-choice violence have a unique perspective and I look forward to your future posts.
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May 19, 2013 at 1:25 pm
Don’t know how sane the voice is, but I don’t advocate violence–even against those who wish to harm us. Restraint is a powerful attribute; I only wish more had it.
Thank you for reading.
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May 19, 2013 at 3:53 pm
I have been moved by this article Mr. Gunn.
Thank you for sharing part of your story.
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May 19, 2013 at 7:35 pm
Thanks for your support, Mitch. Please feel free to express criticism as that is how I improve.
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May 19, 2013 at 3:54 pm
Whatever happened to the dirtball that assassinated Dr. Gunn?
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May 19, 2013 at 7:15 pm
He was sentenced to life in prison. He is currently serving in Okaloosa Correctional Institution in Crestview, Florida. The murder was one of the motivating factors in the creation of the federal Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act.
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May 19, 2013 at 7:47 pm
What is
Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act.?
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May 19, 2013 at 7:48 pm
Why didn’t the scumbag terrorist get Capital Punishment?
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May 19, 2013 at 7:54 pm
First, the FACE act was legislation which made it a federal crime to blocade clinics and impede women seeking abortion services as Operation Rescue, Rescue America, and other anti choice organizations employed years ago in efforts to close down clinics.
As to why Griffin did not get the death penalty, one, I do not believe the state should have the power to execute anyone; two, in Florida, at the time of the Griffin sentencing, premeditated murder alone was not sufficient to warrant a death sentence; they required aggravating circumstances and/or multiple murders or attempted murders to illicit a death sentence.
Personally, I am satisfied Griffin continues to rot in prison and did not get the easy out Paul Hill received a couple of years later for his Jihadist assassination of Dr. Brtton and his escort.
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May 19, 2013 at 4:21 pm
Mr. Gunn,
Excellent Post.
It was a pleasure to read a little bit about your ordeal.
I’m looking forward to reading more . . .
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May 19, 2013 at 7:36 pm
Thanks, Elena. I look forward to writing more. I’ve neglected it for far too long.
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May 19, 2013 at 7:53 pm
Dear Mr. Gunn,
we need to read more about what your family has been through.
Women worldwide depend on the bravery of doctors willing to do the right thing despite the perverse adversity they endure.
We need to applaud all the doctors that have literally placed their lives in jeopardy for the simple purpose of delivering basic health care to women.
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May 19, 2013 at 4:22 pm
Mr Gunn,
My heart felt condolences on your father. Situations like this amaze me because the Christian right feels this complete moral authority on this issue, and yet what they bring to pass is no different then the horrific abuse suffered by women and men at the hands of the Taliban, Al Shabab, the Iranian government and Religious police, the Saudi religious police, the Indian court system, and multiple other institutions and belief systems. The same people that bemoan terrorism on the streets of their own cities, seem to have a complete about face when it comes to exactly he same tactics used on those who try to provide a safe and supportive environment for women in need. I am not going to delve into the science of what is life and what is not in this venue, but the irony of a RtL proponent using violence against these doctors, nurses and other staff, is baffling. I have lived all over the world and the overall propensity to totally disregard the rights of women, and those attempting to care for them, completely baffles me. In many places I still hear Culture being used as an excuse for things like rape, genital mutilation, forced marriage, etc, and all of these acts I see as no different then someone in the US using violence to force their views onto people who are at their most vulnerable. I applaud you, your father, his fellow doctors and nurses, and all the people fighting for the rights of those who are so often forgotten. I also applaud the creators of this site for their courage and determination. All the best, please feel free to contact me anytime. Jeremy
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May 19, 2013 at 7:45 pm
Jeremey,
You are correct to point out the inherent contradictions in the antis professed beliefs and their actions. The truth is, their agenda has nothing do to with a “right to life” moreso than it does a right to control. They want to control women plain and simple. If one were to highlight the contradictions of the right wing, one would have a never ending job as they are contradiction incarnate. For example, how can they profess a hatred for “big government” yet want to control how and when people procreate? How can they say they are anti regulation, when they are constantly using regulation, and/or amending current regulations to make it more difficult for women to access all methods of safe birth control? How can they claim to be stewards of the economy, when they are willing to use tax payer dollars to chase every rabbit in Washington (the current Benghazi hearings are a prime example)?
It is all a farce, and their sole intent is privatazation, control, and implementing their own “Christian” version of Sharia Law.
Thank you much for reading and commenting on my post. I look forward to continuing the conversation.
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May 19, 2013 at 7:55 pm
The Christian Right are a bunch of wackos.
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May 21, 2013 at 2:53 pm
The Christian Right are bigots and racists.
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May 22, 2013 at 9:10 am
We need to stop legislators from using their religion to create laws!
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May 20, 2013 at 9:45 am
Jeremy,
I agree, this is one of the bests articles on this Blog.
I love this blog, and I eagerly wait for an email when a new article has been written.
Can you people publish more than once per week?
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May 21, 2013 at 9:45 am
Anna Jenny, we are trying to publish more frequently and with different people.
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May 19, 2013 at 6:59 pm
saludos!
first, i am so very sorry about your papa having been assassinated. i will never understand evil minds that would advocate murdering someone on city streets and trying to justify it.
i have heard so much about you from people who frequent this blog, so when lorriepoo messaged me and told me you were here i was really excited at the prospect of reading what you had to say and i wasn’t disappointed.
my name is rogelio and i don’t get here as often as i would like to.
i am a religious nut and an anti as well as being a nurse.
my roommate will be moving with her son next weekend to live downstate and finish school closer to her family that she never knew until the last couple of years.
so i can emphasize with you about families keeping you busy.
but enjoy them while you can. i am dealing with some serious empty nest syndrome. i always knew that the day would come when she would want to move on, as that day came with all of my other roommates through the years. but i had hoped it wouldn’t be so soon. 😦
i will get back here when i can and see everyone.
bienvenidos! welcome!
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May 19, 2013 at 7:56 pm
Thanks Rogelio!
As usual you have a thoughtful heartfelt comment.
So nice to hear from you!
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May 20, 2013 at 4:16 pm
Thanks Elena!
You are always gracious, I’m sure.
It is always nice to hear your kind words
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May 20, 2013 at 11:08 pm
Women’s rights rule!!
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May 21, 2013 at 9:46 am
Where the hell have you been, Rogie???? Stay in touch, dude…
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May 21, 2013 at 6:00 pm
i have been busy with my roomie and her baby, and you know how active they are after they start walking.
between trying to help her out with the baby and with work and my little efforts for social justice, i haven’t been online like i used to be.
and when i have been, it has mostly been in my work with secular woman.
http://www.secularwoman.org
i’m sorry, my friend. please forgive me.
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May 22, 2013 at 9:12 am
The Pope says abortion and birth control are wrong!
Shame on all of you for perpetuating a sin against the Holy Papacy.
May God have mercy on your eternal souls.
Think before you write these sinful and immoral writings. Upon judgement you may end up in Hell!
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May 22, 2013 at 10:02 am
Perhaps you forgot the USA is governed by the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of govenrment, or at least that’s what Mr. Mitchell taught me in fifth grade history–I believe it was Mr. Mitchell, he was a hell of a good teacher and I still admire and think of him to this day; though I was always pissed he made me do my fifth grade state project on Alaska as oppossed to TN; nothing against AK per se, but I lived in TN for a while, had family there, and really had my heart set on TN; perhaps I instinctively knew the beast Palin would emerge from AK thus inspiring my youthful aversion; I have very fond memories of TN; one time, my cousin and I tried to sneak onto the local girls camp at night to see if we could meet some sequestered females, but that is another story altogether–so I fail to see how the Pope and what he thinks of birth control applies in this debate. Perhaps to Catholics this is a point of moral vacillation, but to those of us who are non-Catholic residents of a democratic republic, the Pope’s preferences don’t really mean anything. Plus, as long as the papcy fails to deal effectively with the whole world wide pedophilia scandal, anyone who raises what the pope thinks as a point of supporting their argument is out by default, forfeits the game, and has to stand in a corner.
I was damned to hell for the first time in Mrs. Croom’s third grade class by a girl sitting next to me in detention. I was me wearing a KISS t-shirt and had only been in the Bible belt for a little over a year. I hadn’t yet grasped what the Bible belt was. I guess I thought it was a fasion accessory. While it was pretty disarming at eight to be damned to hell for liking a clownish pop group, at 42 and after being damned to hell a total of 10,000 plus times, it really does not bother me. I do not believe in an eternal soul, a devil, or a hell though I did enjoy reading Dante’s Inferno especially the scene with the old Italian dude who wanders through hell holding his own head. I don’t recall his name, but it was a damn good image and a good metaphor I think for some of these posts from antis who keep saying the same thing zombie-like with their heads severed from their hearts spouting hate, encouraging terrorism, and actually wishing death on others while at the same time professing love. Heartless disembodied non-sense spewed by a head perpetually in its own self serving and selfy pittying hand.
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May 19, 2013 at 7:04 pm
Thank you for sharing your history. I will be looking foward to read your book!!
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May 19, 2013 at 7:47 pm
Thank you, Alma, for your response. Please feel free to comment on future posts with any contructive feedback as I want to improve my communication and writing which is only possible through reviewing feedback from readers such as you.
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May 19, 2013 at 8:06 pm
I had an abortion when I was 21.
It was the right decision for me and I needed it.
It WAS NOT convenient!
I have NO Regrets!
I must applaud my doctor.
He was paid almost nothing and he was the best doctor I have ever known.
After reading about this doctor that was murdered for doing what my doctor did for me I was in tears.
I hope doctors appreciate how important they are.
I know sometimes it can be hard to realize this when someone is doing a job day after day.
I want to personally thank all doctors that risk their lives every single day for just doing what my kind doctor did for me.
I want to personally thank the Doctor in this blog also. He was brutally murdered. I remember reading this in the newspaper. I never knew much of what really happened.
I am so hurt that this doctor was murdered for no reason. It makes me sick.
I am so thankful there are good people in the world that help others. I cannot fathom that some of them have been killed for their kindness and expertise.
We should all express our appreciation for these doctors. I cannot imagine how horrible my life would have been without my doctor. I might have dies if were not for the goodwill of my doctor.
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May 19, 2013 at 8:17 pm
Thank you for your testimonial.
I’ll share an anecdote with you.
My dad used to say that the ones who protested the loudest were the first to show up at the back door with their daughters seeking his services when their daughters were in need. Unless you have been in a situation where you needed the service, it is impossible to judge what one goes through when deciding on whether or not to terminate a prenancy.
As I mentioned in a previous post, there is no shortage of contradictory right wing lunatics. They are vociferously against what others need until they need it and then it is acceptable–but only because they need it and only because their case is unique. You cannot throw a rock without hitting a right winger who professes one thing and does the exact opposite.
My dad, until the antis started stalking him, putting up wanted posters, and threatening his life, always assisted them when in need and let them leave through the back door through which they came allowing them to maintain their annonymity and credibility as antis.
It was only just before his death that he refused to treat those who were anti-choice in public but pro-choice when the doors were closed.
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May 21, 2013 at 8:19 pm
i am always so thankful when i hear of someone who has no regrets about their experience with abortion.
my own was crushing. it took me 25 years to come to terms with it.
there are some antis that seem to want for anyone who has had an abortion to deal with inner turmoil.
i don’t want for anyone to deal with what i went through for a quarter of a century.
if someone chooses an abortion, regardless of what i think of it, i want it to be as easy as possible, with as little backlash as possible.
for 25 years, i wasn’t giving the best of myself to those that i loved, to my god or to myself.
for me to have allowed myself to go so long and not allow myself to be at peace was sick.
for someone to want that same thing for someone else is just evil.
wanting for someone’s experience to be better than mine was doesn’t make me less of an anti. it just makes me an anti that doesn’t want bad things for other people.
i think it takes a lot of courage for anyone to come forward and speak of such a personal experience knowing that they might be subjected to the venom that others might spew.
for what it’s worth, i am glad that you have no regrets and that your life is good.
be well, brave lady. 🙂
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May 20, 2013 at 9:40 am
I want to welcome David to this blog. We go way back and I am so thrilled that we recently connected again. David’s is a story that needs to be told. He was thrust into a national spotlight many years ago and handled it with grace and dignity. And, of course, if he could get his father back he’d do it in an instant but the fact is that his father’s death and David’s subsequent advocacy paved the way for a federal law that I am convinced saved lives over the years. We will be forever grateful to you, David and we are glad that you are “back.” I look forward to your telling your stories and ultimately seeing them in a published form. Remember “I Won’t Back Down”
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May 20, 2013 at 9:43 am
I won’t back down – The Tom Petty Song?
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May 20, 2013 at 5:41 pm
Dad played the Tom Petty song to a group of antis
protesting outside of one of the clinics where he
worked as a protest the protest direct action.
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May 21, 2013 at 9:47 am
And that song became the “anthem” of the abortion provider movement. To this day, when I hear it I think of Doctor Gunn and his son, David.
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May 20, 2013 at 10:49 am
Where do I get the book?
I can’t find it online?
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May 20, 2013 at 5:36 pm
I haven’t written it yet…It is coming!
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May 20, 2013 at 11:08 pm
Oh, OK, Thank you.
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May 20, 2013 at 9:46 am
Abortion is murder and you shall all be judged one soon day.
Stop murdering babies!
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May 20, 2013 at 10:48 am
Hey crazy invisible lord, get lost you troll
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May 20, 2013 at 2:21 pm
Abortion is not murder. It takes human life as does capital punishment, but murder is a legal term indicating the illegal taking of human life. Hence, it is not murder, like the assassination of his papa was.
You stand corrected. 🙂
Please share with us, TLIW, what you do personally to promote a culture of life?
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May 20, 2013 at 4:13 pm
I am the anonymous who corrected TLIW
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May 20, 2013 at 11:09 pm
Huh?
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May 22, 2013 at 9:13 am
Stoopid!
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May 20, 2013 at 5:50 pm
Dude, I don’t believe in your lord, am absolutely
positive he does not exist, and am most assuredly
unconcerned about some post mortem final exam where
my essay question (life in this metaphor) is graded
for content and grammar.
Also, since abortion is legal, it is not murder. Just
like it is not murder to execute someone sentenced if
they are imprisoned in a state where capital punishment
is legal.
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May 20, 2013 at 11:10 pm
Religious people are batshit crazy.
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May 22, 2013 at 9:15 am
Glenda,
That is offensive, you are disparaging Batshit!
BatShit is not deserving of such a defamatory comment!
😉
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May 21, 2013 at 6:40 am
How funny that this poster is making a claim to 1)be omniscient about what some entity is doing (watching), 2) know babies are being murdered, and 3) all will be judged and by saying this is, in fact, judging.
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May 20, 2013 at 12:38 pm
It is unfortunate that this had to happens… Killing somebody who is practicing legally under the law is no excuse to murder a doctor, father, husband, brother, son… The pro-life movement loses a lost when cheers to this actions!
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May 21, 2013 at 9:50 am
What was interesting, however, was after Doctor Gunn was killed a number of people – including one Paul Hill – started rationalizing the killing as “justifiable homicide.” They argued that a doctor should be killed because he was going to “kill” the “babies.” I hope, David, that at some point in your book you talk about your reaction to these comments.
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May 21, 2013 at 10:02 am
I have a question for Mr. Gunn and anyone else with an intelligent answer. This is a legitimate question that deserves a thoughtful answer. So please, if the rest of you would refrain from your vile spewing about how pro-lifers are ignorant long enough for Mr. Gunn or anyone else with a thought process to answer it would be appreciated. My question is this, Why does it make sense to you to see the violent death of one human as a tragedy but yet you advocate for the intentional violent deaths of millions more? These that you advocate death for are only separated from the ones seen as tragedies by time and size. Both are fully human. Both have futures. Both have destinies. Both have spirits. Both have personalities. One is fully grown and growing old. The other is growing up in order to be born. Why does that time frame justify death for the one? All humans are the same, made up of genetics, cells, and DNA. What justifies killing the one and mourning the other? Is it the fact that one is loved and the other hated? That’s no true moral justification for death. Is it the fact that one is grown and full of experience while the other lacks experience? That is no true justification. Is it the fact that one is outside the womb and the other inside? Do those few feet geographically really determine the worthiness of a human to live or die? Is it that one is owned and the property of another and the other is free? No human is truly the property of another. Any perceived ownership is illegitimate. Is it that the woman’s wishes, life and plans trump those of the ones you advocate death for? Why? Why do her wishes, plans and desires trump the life of another to the point that it leads to the others death? Where does this justification really come from? It doesn’t make logical sense. Why do you mourn for the one and advocate death to the other? Again, a thoughtful answer would be appreciated.
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May 21, 2013 at 11:57 am
It may come as no suprise to you, nosurprises, that we approach this debate from entirely different frame works. You approach the question of abortion and when life begins from a hegemonous moral framework based on what your religion teaches you–I assume–while many on the choice side approach abortion from a civil liberties and individual self control framework. These two basic polemics cannot co-exsist.
Your ground level, base understanding stems from an interpretation of a book holy and sacred to you–certainly not to me and many other non-religious and to peoples of other religions–, and your interpretation of that work encourages you to impose your will onto others with the goal of converting them to your limited ideology. It is the whole “fisher of men” myth. Your understanding teaches you life begins at conception and that if anyone destroys that life potential at even the zygotic state, that person is a murderer and the woman who choses to have an abortion is a murderer or at least an accomplice as well.
There are a number of legal reasons why your points about in utero versus fully born, geographic rationalization, and property versus independent being are unsound from a legal standpoint, and it is why people on your side of the fence are pushing for personhood amendments in many of the so called Red States. The fact is, the state (in this case federal and state laws) do not recognize a non-viable fetus as a person with the same rights as a born person meaning they are not eligible for the same rights as you and I. Second and in connection with the first, since the state does not recognize them as people, there is no “murder” per se under the law. Third, abortion, whether you like/accept it or not, is legal so a trained professional completing their legally sanctioned job is not breaking the law, is not harming a person as recognized by the law, and is, therefore, not guilty of any crime much less murder. Now I anticipate you will argue “God’s law trumps man’s law” to which I’ll reply, “not according to our Constitution” which does not allow a state sanctioned religion as much as Christians claim to the contrary we are a Christian nation. The fact is, though I am sure there are many on the blog and are many providers–Dr. Tiller among them–I am not a Christian or a Jew and do not believe in a final judgement or the elect or any other of that superstitious mumbo jumbo; as a result, any argument that includes anything along the lines of be afraid because the metaphysical grandpa who waits to judge us all will look down poorly on me meaning I fail the big post mortem test, is utterly meaningless to me, does not intimidate me, and only serves to invalidate your arguments.
On the other hand, my ground level understanding begins with whether or not the state, the church, a husband, or a partner has the right to force another human being to carry to term a fertilized egg or fetus. Thus, while you are grounded in religious hegemony, I approach this issue from one of personal liberty and freedom. Since I do not believe a fertilized egg is the equivalent of a full born person, I am not even going to debate your false equivalancy between the two. What I will says is there is nothing more intrusive than to give the state the power to say who should have a baby; just as there is nothing more horrendous than giving the state the ability to kill via the death penalty. I am not trying to impose a limited world view on others as are you. I am not trying to impose anything on anyone. In short, I am trying to preserve the choices people have to make decisions regarding their lives, and I feel people know what is best for them on an individual basis based on any number of circumstances, and, finally, I trust they will make the best decision for themselves. They do not need meddling folks like you telling them how to live their lives according to the way you want them to live. That, my friend, is dictatorship which is the exact opposite of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Lastly, as I have already established we view this issue from wholly different baselines, let me simply address the point about murdering doctors. It is illegal to murder doctors because murder is against the law and abortion is legal. You may not like that fact just like I don’t like the fact that I am not independently wealthy or that my dad was killed by someone who thinks as you do, but thinking those things does not change facts. When it comes down to it, we are arguing over facts, not truth, and I approach this debate based on facts, not truth.
What I mean is this, truth is a relative term which means different things to different people. For example, your truth is of a religious nature. You believe, I assume, what the Bible tells you so is the truth; unfortunately, simply because the Bible tells you so does not make it fact. It may make it a truth you coddle and wish others accepted, but it does not make it fact. Facts are cold, immutable, and reliable. Truth is written in water.
Considering the facts, it is wrong to murder abortion providers and statff because they provide a legal service to people who seek their service out due to many factors. They do not impose their wills on an unsuspecting public. They are not out en masse rounding up pregnant women to steal their babies. They are preserving reproductive choices available to women thus allowing women to determine their own futures. Since many people involved in this issue do not equate abortion with murder, do not accept the argument life begins at conception, and are not grounded in a fervorish religous zealotry when it comes to this issue, there is no basis in our reasoning for murdering someone in cold blood who carries out a legal service that others request he provide, not that he/she seeks to force upon people.
So your argument that embryos and doctors are the same is not grounded in any legal law of the land, your basis for understanding is not universally accepted, and your desire to impose your basis of understanding upon others is contrary to our existing laws of the land.
I am not going to debate this topic on religious terms and on what God wants and does not want, because I do not accept as fact or truth that there is a God so his terms are meaningless to me; however, I am not going to force you to give up your understanding and embrace mine. You are free to believe what you want to believe, though it is perverse and contradictory in my view; however, you are not free to impose your will on others, to force your world view on others, or to set the terms of the debate solely along religous bounds as if we are all bound by the god you say you serve.
I hope I’ve answered your questions in a rational and reasoned manner.
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May 21, 2013 at 12:08 pm
PS. You are not pro-life because you are anit abortion. I think it is an utter failure on the part of choice advocates that we allow the antis to lay a patent on life leaving us to debate on the terms of who is pro life on the one hand and pro choice on the other. The time has long since past for us to reclaim life as part of our platform. The connotations of debating along these lines already put us in a position of defense as though we are anti life–that’s what their framework insinutates. My next post will very likely deal with this paradox.
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May 21, 2013 at 3:21 pm
Mr. Gunn,
There is one huge flaw in your answer and that is assuming that I asked the question from a religious perspective. I did not. I asked it from a secular humanistic perspective. I in fact did not mention religion. There are many very active pro-life atheists. My question was merely a question of what makes one human worthy to be mourned upon his death while you advocate for the killing of many more? What makes one human’s violent death a tragedy while millions more die violently with your approval? That is not a religious question but rather a moral one. Atheists have morals that are not linked to their worship of a deity. And specifically in reference to abortion some are anti-abortion (the term is certainly acceptable) with the understanding that if there is only one life then one human does not have the right to take that one life of another for the sake of their own comfort. Why should one human who insists that he is not anti-life at the same time insist that he has the right to take another human life? Science has long proven that human life begins at conception therefore the question is not when does life begin but when can I take that life for my own reasons.
I am aware of the argument that abortion is not murder because it’s legal. Legally it is not murder but it is taking the life of another, usually for convenience. So again, my original question, why is taking the life of one acceptable and not the other?
Your statement, ” Since I do not believe a fertilized egg is the equivalent of a full born person” is silly at best. The question is not about a fertilized egg being a full born person. The question is when does one human being have the right to take the life of another. The child in the womb is fully human. Science proves that. You say you are trying to preserve the choices that people get to make about their own lives. That would be commendable if it did not exclude an entire group that you feel are unworthy to make the choice to live or die. Lets assume for the sake of argument that I agree with you about an embryo not being the same as a full person, when does the fetus become a full person? At viability? At birth? If it’s at birth then why do pro-choice advocates fight the ban on partial birth abortions? If it’s at viability then why do they fight legislature that would make post viable abortions illegal? Go backwards from birth. When does the human in the womb become a human? And when is that human worthy to live? And when is that human expendable at the hands of another and why then is it expendable at that point of existence and not another?
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May 21, 2013 at 6:05 pm
Nosurprises, I do not advocate killing in any form or fashion: that is what you are doing by equating abortion with murder and doctors/women who seek abortion as murders who place no value on life. Further, your beliefs allow you to label those who disagree with you as murders and/or individuals who place less value on life than you. I’m sure it is wholly self satisfying to hold all the answers; however, I do not believe abortion is murder for a number of reasons already enumerated. As to what exact moment life begins—whether at conception or during the second or third trimester of pregnancy, there is no one size fits all answer, and you can find scientists who agree with one viewpoint or other just as you can find any number of experts who will support opposing sides of any number of dichotomous and controversial topics. What it comes down to is what you believe and to what capital T Truths to which you subscribe as I noted in my prior response.
For you, life begins at conception, and I am sure that is an unshakable belief and truth for you; therefore, I see little point in trying to convince you of the contrary. From an ethical standpoint, I can certainly see and accept that some people, regardless of their belief system, are against abortion. That is your right, and while I inaccurately labeled you as a Christian fundamentalist, the fact remains you hold certain beliefs and truths to be facts that they hold when the ultimate answer to “life, the universe, and everything” (thanks Douglas Adams), is and may always be unknowable. Though my answer may not be satisfying to someone who opposes abortion for what you believe are valid reasons, I long ago stopped trying to convince anyone to change a fundamental self-held view as I believe it is futilely Sysiphian; however, it is not “silly” to observe that a fertilized egg is not the same thing as a 47 year old person—my dad’s age when killed. While the potential for eventually developing into a human is present at conception and through the various trimesters, it is “silly” to argue a zygote or a fetus is the same thing as a living, breathing, independent person. You choose what you choose to believe to support your arguments. I cannot convince you otherwise.
What you also fail to acknowledge is there are many reasons people seek abortion as an alternative and it is, in most cases, not for convenience’s sake.
What is not debatable is my dad was a living, breathing human being by anyone’s estimation—even yours; further, he, and others like him, were tragically and cowardly killed in a premeditated fashion by someone who held similar beliefs as you because they clung to a belief system which equates abortion with murder. There is no logical jujitsu which changes those facts. Someone, in dad’s case Michael Griffin, made a conscious decision to purchase a gun, practice using it, drive to my dad’s job site, hide in the bushes, and shoot him three times in the back. Those facts were heard to a trier of fact in the form of a jury trial, and Griffin was pronounced guilty by a jury of his peers.
We could continue to go back and forth with one another until we reach our respective expiration dates. You can say nothing which will make me have a V8 moment and say to myself, “damn, I was wrong about this issue all along; if only nosurprises had come along earlier, I’d have realized the error of my ways and stopped advocating fetal murder.” So let’s save ourselves some carpal tunnel exertion and agree to disagree. You hold on to your beliefs and truths which you feel are well reasoned and supported. I will hold on and fight for mine.
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May 21, 2013 at 11:36 pm
While I can agree with you that I won’t change your mind and you won’t change my mind so the going back and forth is futile, my original question still stands. Why is one human mourned while the other is expendable?
As a side note, I did not disclose my religious beliefs or lack their of. What I said was that I was asking a question from a secular perspective. I did thst because I believe that abortion is not merely a religious delimma but a moral one that is wrong independant of religious beliefs. Although I am a follower of Jesus Christ my question was not from that perspective.
I do not agree that the point of one becoming human is an arbitrary point that differs depending upon ones belief system. The fetus is either fully human or fully something else. It does not become human at some point. It is human from conception and abortion destroys it. Therefore abortion destroys a human. Why does one human have the right to destroy another? That question had yet to be answered.
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May 21, 2013 at 6:10 pm
your postscript makes an excellent point.
while i aspire to be pro-life, in regards to abortion, i prefer the term anti.
my spiritual advisor is a pro-choice nun who runs the soup kitchen that i have a gig at and works in conjunction with 3 other nuns to run a local battered women’s shelter.
she has devoted her entire life to love of neighbor and serving humankind.
nobody could ever convince me that sister m. isn’t pro-life just because she is a choicer.
besides, anti simply means opposed to. it is a perfectly good term and is correct in this case.
but there are some other antis who become rabid with me for referring to myself and other antis by this label. according to some of them, it is equivalent to a racial slur.
jajajajaja
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May 21, 2013 at 3:01 pm
Wow!
Great answer!
Anti Choice/Lifer’s are such morons.
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May 21, 2013 at 3:02 pm
As usual No reply from the wacky misogynist.
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May 21, 2013 at 3:28 pm
Ira. Perhaps you did not read my post clearly enough. Here is a refresher just in case you missed it.
“I have a question for Mr. Gunn and anyone else with an intelligent answer. This is a legitimate question that deserves a thoughtful answer. So please, if the rest of you would refrain from your vile spewing about how pro-lifers are ignorant long enough for Mr. Gunn or anyone else with a thought process to answer it would be appreciated. “
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May 22, 2013 at 9:21 am
Regarding Ira’s disdain for the consistent evasion by Anti Choicers.
NS, it appears you still have not attempted to answer any of the questions that were posed to you:
1) Is a blastomere cell a baby?
Is a fertilized Egg a baby?
– Are Blastomere biopsies OK?
2) Is abortion OK for a Cornual Pregnancy?
3) Is abortion OK for a Partial Molar Pregnancy?
4) Should women be allowed to use Hormonal Birth Control?
5) If you disagree with abortion and think it is murder what penalty would you like to see for women that obtain the Abortion Pill on their own?
6) Should Women be able to choose Emergency Contraception if they want it?
7) Should Women have access to present infertility treatments?
Do you worship a One True Invisible Sky God like most Anti Choicers?
I have never seen an antichoicer answer any real questions posed to them.
It would be great if you were the first.
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May 21, 2013 at 7:00 pm
Howdy fellow free thinker, nice to meet you David and am enjoying your blog post and your replies. There is a debate on the Atheist Experience page and probably on YouTube as well, that Matt Dillahunty had with a anti-choice atheist at the Texas Free Thought convention, if you get a chance check it out. Well here is the link
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May 21, 2013 at 7:06 pm
cool. I’ll check it out.
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May 21, 2013 at 2:59 pm
Nosurprises,
Your questions make no sense.
You are blind to your own bizarre bias.
To answer I need to know your frame of reference.
For you is a single fertilized cell the same as a full adult?
You appear to imply that?
Are you capable of answering the simple questions?
As far as I can tell you will not.
Example:
Is a Blastomere Cell deserving of personhood protection?
If so why?
If not Why?
If you reply to answers you will be the first anti choicer in history to begin to answer the simple kindergarten science questions. My guess is you are not educated to answer any simple questions.
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May 21, 2013 at 6:48 pm
nosurprises, i am a post abortive papa who became an anti on the day that my partner and i made that choice in 1984.
i think that if antis are really sincere about preventing abortions, we would do well to look at ourselves instead of pointing fingers at choicers.
we need to walk our talk.
we need to stop talking and start listening.
we need to embrace women and couples who are seeking abortions. they are seeking one for many different reasons. if we are talking and not listening to why they want one, it is impossible to help them.
abortion doesn’t resolve the obstacle that they are facing that causes them to want or need one.
we need to help them overcome that or those obstacles, if it is possible. and what’s more, we need to offer that aid regardless of the choice they make. if we do that, then no matter what choice they make, their lives are better because they have overcome an obstacle.
we need to be willing to open our hearts and our homes to people in need, rather than turning our collective back on them.
we need to be willing to make real sacrifices in our own lives instead of just tossing them a pack of diapers and platitudes like “oh look! they’re white like jesus! you should be grateful!”
we need to be willing to actually help instead of simply saying “BAD! BAD! BAD!” and then leaving them to fend for themselves.
even if a woman aborts for no reason other than that she doesn’t want to be pregnant, peace be with her anyway.
anti legislators will overwhelmingly attempt to cut back on o eliminate social services that would help lower income families to raise their children.
why is that? it is contrary to being pro-life
anti leaders need to speak out against violence to abortion providers and they need to do so without condition.
when a violent anti-choice act is committed, the most they will say is something along the lines of “we condemn this act of violence just as we condemn the violence in the womb.”
we are antis! there is no need to bring up the fact that we oppose abortion. that is nothing more than trying to score political points out of a tragedy
like it or not, we are seen on the same lines as the eric rudolphs and the scott roeders of the world.
there are some choicers who i adore and i know adore me, but are terrified to get to know me better because they are scared of me.
i can’t really fault them for that.
i really wish that more antis would look at our movement, rather than offering blind allegiance to it.
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May 21, 2013 at 6:53 pm
Some of my best friends are anti-abortion and I don’t hold it against them. It took me a long time to get there, but we simply don’t discuss abortion or politics. Instead, we focus on what we have in common, not what makes us different.
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May 22, 2013 at 3:39 am
if i had been through what you have been through, i don’t know that i would ever be able to be close friends with antis.
the fact that you can shows your high level of tolerance.
science bless you.
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May 22, 2013 at 10:36 am
While people insist in asking things like “why this justify that or vice and versa”, they forget one simple point (at least for me it is simple) this man, who wrote this article, was a child when his father was killed to practice something that was not HIS OWN CHOICE… The women who goes in the clinic to have an abortion are the ones who decide to end the pregnancy, not the doctors…
The doctors actually, if you dare to agree, are only practicing what he did promisse the day he received his degree in medical school… That in the best of their ability they will practice his “art”, and that is to save lives. Than you might be saying, but if a doctor practice abortion he is not saving lives, he is killing… Well, in a sense yes, i agree! But if there is NO doctors at all to give women a “safe abortion” without risk of dying, or God knows what else, it will be hard to have women in the future, considering that a lot of women have abortions…
so, instead thinking only that this man who wrote this article is just another pro-choice, think of him as a once a child who had to cry for missing his dad to play ball with… Just because a lunatic pro-life (awkward to be called pro-life and to kill somebody) decide that was the right thing to do… Wake up people, just because i like blue i can’t force everybody to like blue…
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May 22, 2013 at 11:05 am
Thanks for the response, Sonia, and you make a very good point regarding why abortion should be legal and that is a) women will continue to seek abortions even if illegal and while legal they are regulated and safer than a back alley, and b) dad’s murder was not justified. I appreciate the support and honesty. Too bad many on the anti-abortion side are blinded by hate to the extent they can no longer see the contradictions in their professed beliefs and the actions of their brethren. It is tragic.
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May 23, 2013 at 9:58 am
Thank you too DLGII for taking the time to read my post and to comment on. I once posted here that i don’t agree with medicaid paying for abortions and got slammed, but even tough i don’t agree with everything, doesn’t mean i can’t think of the suffering of those who lost a family member to these lunatics of the so called pro-life. I think that living in a free country mean that whatever you decide to do is your problem…
Anyways… Thank you again!
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May 23, 2013 at 11:15 am
Sonia,
It is difficult to move forward if people refuse to listen to one another. While I disagree with your opinion on Medicaid funding for abortion, I appreciate your empathy. The internet makes it very easy to say things you wouldn’t otherwise say. I’ve debated the antis for years and stood face to face with them while they attempted to lay seige to clinics in MS, AR, and AL–clinics that are no longer open for one reason or another–and there is nothing I’ve written I would not have the cojones to say to someone in person. Unfortunately, as you experienced, that is not always the case.
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June 8, 2013 at 2:29 am
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August 7, 2013 at 5:02 pm
Today, I went to the beach front with my kids.
I found a sea shell and gave it to my 4 year old
daughter and said “You can hear the ocean if you put this to your ear.” She put the shell to her ear and
screamed. There was a hermit crab inside and it pinched her ear.
She never wants to go back! LoL I know this is completely off topic but I
had to tell someone!
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