Ms. Sanger.
If you are unfamiliar with her please review her story.
This is not the place to regurgitate what is readily available throughout the web.
Choice. Persecution. The decision of others to legislate what a free minded, with all the liberties granted her by our founders.
If you are ProLife.
Please opine on all the cases where you would allow a women to make her own choice.
Rape by a father at 14?
Cervical Cancer?
A tubal pregnancy.
Instead of all the pro life rhetoric. Please address the difficult questions so we can find a common ground.
Remember the horrors of our historical mistakes on these issues.
How soon we forget.
Get educated.
Abortion - Abortion Clinics, Abortion Pill, Abortion Information 
November 18, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Prolifers are not in the habit of murdering doctors. More Janitors have been killed on the job since abortion became legal than abortionists. There are millions of prolifers, there are a handful of people who handle things in a violent way. There are pro choicers who have murdered prolifers too. So that pretty much puts both camps in the same boat.
I never even made a statement in that argument that said that it was wrong to abort in the case of rape, ectopic, etc. My point was that the issue of abortion does not revolve around those circumstances. It is absolutely wrong to abort for the majority of the reasons that it happens. So why not focus on the majority? Because you would lose that argument. Murder to further your career is wrong. Murder because you don’t want to be with the father of your child is wrong. Even murder because of financial situations, and other hardships is still worng and it is a lie to tell these women that abortion will make their lives better.
If pro choicers faced these facts we might end up with laws that allow abortion only in extenuating circumstances. I’m not saying that I am supporting abortion in any case, but that I am for a reduction in the number of them, and a more honest approach from everyone. If we get rid of pointless abortions, then we have covered the black and white and we can address the gray.
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November 18, 2009 at 12:07 pm
By the way, in the case of rape, rare is less than %.5, less than 1 in 200. That comes from a pro choice source.
And I’ve never heard of a woman who did not abort after a rape that regreted not abortiong.
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November 18, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Rachel,
I completely understand what your trying to potray with the victims of 9-1-1. But all I want others to understand is that people live their own lives and it is not up to anyone else to tell them their decision was wrong. Some people spend so much time pointing out flaws in othes lives and fail to see the flaws in their own. I feel that if you are going to throw stones at others you should elvaluate yourself first.
As far as your 9-1-1 scenerio is concerned I lost a family memeber in that disaster and I lost a brother in the war that was a result of it. Was I angry, OF COURSE, but I choose no to judge. Judgement is left up to someone much more powerful than me. And yes, I look at myself in the mirror and I can say “I have no room to judge” So once agian, I encourage to look solely at yourself, your own life, and your own choices. Let’s not spend so much of our time judging other people that we disregard taking responsibility for our own lives. That’s all I’m trying to say.
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November 18, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Ok bottom line, abortion is a selfish issue. (A decision made by the self for the self.)
I’m not judging in the sense that I am sending people to hell for abortion! I’m not sure where you got off thinking I was!? Like you mentioned, I leave the judging up to someone much higher than myself- which is a much scarier thing to deal with than if it were just me judging. I don’t determine where anyone spends eternity. I feel like the pro-Life stance I take is being taken the wrong way. Just because I have a stance on an issue doesn’t mean I am just out there to throw stones at people.
And on the part of relating abortion to reproductive rights… that is just plain ridiculous. The issue is not reproduction. Reproduction has occurred. This is a case of human rights.
I’d also like to say I am very sorry to hear about your brother.
Aside from the obvious reasons, what makes me so passionate about abortion prevention is that I have a son with cancer. And I hate to think that future doctor’s and cure seekers are being aborted. At least 3,500 babies are being aborted everyday… breaks my heart. I’ve met so many families along the way who’s lives have all been flipped upside down by the same cancer my son has- and I see how important time is. And maybe a baby that is being aborted right now won’t find a cure in time for some of the children we’ve met, but maybe that baby could grow up and find a cure 30 years down the line and save the thousands upon thousands of children who have cancer…
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February 10, 2014 at 10:20 am
What a privilege to be a first hand wnetiss of your conversion, Abby. I was one of those silent prayer warriors during your stint at PP in Bryan. I, too, am a convert a repentant sinner giving all I’ve got in thanksgiving for my new life in Christ. Since I was once one of them , it’s easier to be compassionate because I still remember my misunderstanding of reality and why I was the way I was. But your voice today is a strong reminder of our human condition but for the grace of God go I. If God loves those on both sides of the fence, who are we to not do the same? I thought Pope JP2 once said the death penalty should only be reserved in special cases for vicious murderers who are at risk of escape, thus a threat to society that’s not likely in high security prisons. I will continue to pray for conversion of myself, and our country. We should never stop growing more and more in love with Christ and His people. To not love Gosnell would be a slap in Christ’s face I will not throw the first stone. I will slink away, shamefaced, knowing I am not without sin. But on a happier note – knowing and loving Jesus and growing in the faith has brought me the most profound peace and joy! I am a new person in Him, and it feels pretty great!
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November 18, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Beth Rose,
To preface, I apologize if I get confused on the names in the thread.
1) What do you call killing a baby (please, a specific name, murder? still?)
in the thousands of circumstances,
Like Tubal pregnancy that I could name, that I believe you would likely agree
it was OK from what I have inferred from the above.
You said:
“I never even made a statement in that argument that said that it was
wrong to abort in the case of rape, ectopic, etc . . ”
( I could be wrong).
When a women has a Tubal Pregnancy and we perform an Abortion on that baby in the tube
What name to apply to that action of abortion? Is that murder? If not what is it. It seems like the same, no?
Is it murder?
2) Anencephalics – babies sadly that have developed with no brains or cranium (I am
speaking of the harsher part of the neural tube defect spectrum). They will NOT grow a
brain. Can they be aborted?
3) What about birth control? Slippery slope here. It is not in dispute that many
forms of birth control occasional cause a fertilized egg ( a baby?) to be aborted.
Would you rid any birth control from approval that had a chance at causing abortion?
Most birth control methods occasional cause an abortion.
Remember, the original Morning after Pills, were just regular Birth control Pills.
4) The Morning After Pill, OK?, Not OK? Definitely causes abortion some of the time, would
you legislate away
the right of women to access to this item as well?
5) You clearly have no substantial objective experience if you have never heard of someone who
was raped and was
healthy after an abortion. This is not to diminish the trauma of rape,
but to take out the confounder
of their choice to abort. Where do you get these notions?
This is important stuff, you shouldn’t disseminate wrongful information,
you will harm someone.
6) I am saddened to hear about the individual with the son with cancer, it is an issue that
one cannot
extend enough empathy.
However, would you allow, a fertilized egg, to be used to create a stem cell line that might cure
that illness one day? or is that abortion, murder as well? To investigate a single cell. One cell.
7) Infertility offices do abortions on many fertilized eggs that are not used. Should people
not have
access to ART, Assisted Reproductive Technology? Is that Murder, that abortion also?
Beth, There are a lot more examples, but one can only write so much.
Please tell me which of the
above YOU would legislate to DISALLOW women their choice to control their bodies
because of your
belief system.
This is NOT an insubstantial number of examples. They add up.
Don’t relegate them to less than a half percent of pregnancies.
I can add a lot more.
Abortion education is important before one starts spewing opinion that harms others.
Women must be allowed to control their reproduction.
It is essential to a free society that endeavors
to hold women as equals with all the possibilities of men.
Otherwise women are subjugated like chattel. Look around the world, it is obvious.
Looking forward to your specific answers on the above so we ca understand a part of
the prolife position,
ie, when does a person get to choose what another person can or cannot do with their body
when it comes to reproductive freedoms?
Lets keep it going, answers are good for healthy understanding.
Thanks,
Erin
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November 20, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Erin,
1. If pro choicers were truly concerned about the welfare of the mother’s they would approach this subject much differently. And I am one of the first to admit that many prolifers do need to educate themselves further.
Morning after pills and medical abortions are very dangerous because if the mother has an ectopic pregnancy she think they have aborted but are at risk of serious comlications including death.
There has been a hyge increase in ectopics since abortion was legalized, and ectopics happen more often after a women has had a previous abortion.
So whether we call it murder or not, legal abortion at Planned Parenthood and other clinics is increasing women’s risks. In fact most of the time an ectopic is realized once there has already been a rupture and the baby is already dead. Emergency rooms can handle ectopics. This issue is not part of “reproductive freedom”. If prochoicers are so concerned about ectopics, they should eliminate all other abortions because they are increasing these dangers.
2. I am not familiar with that disease, but there is no way that I could condone ending another life because someone has determined the “quality of life” for that individual to be low. Peolpe used to say that black people were basically just slightly above dogs and we were doing them a favor by deciding their fates. Absolutely absurd. If a baby has a fatal disease then time will take care of it. We’ve all heard of miracle babies that survive the “impossible,” or cases where the doctors were completely wrong about what was happening inside the womb and everything ended up ok.
3. If a pill can cause an abortion than it should not be taken. With freedom comes responsibilty. Sex can cause pregnancy. Accept it.
4. Morning after pill is taken with the intent to abort if there is a pregnancy. It is wrong. Even abortionists agree that life begins at conception, they just don’t believe that it is a person. – Where have we heard that before? Oh, yeah the whole slavery thing, and Nazi Germany, etc. And don’t forget the health risks involved, including possible death because of ectopics, and the other side effects.
5. I did not say that I never heard of anyone who had an abortion and then was not healty. I said that I have never heard of a rape victim who did NOT abort who wished that she had.
6. Michael J Fox was on Oprah once talking about the importance of stem cell research from fetuses, and the doctor interrupted him to tell him that other stem celss were far more effective for this kind of research. Are you so sure that these stem cells are necessary? Aborted fetuses are not the only resource.
7. If there were less abortions there would be more babies to adopt. It is not right to start a life and then end it.
The bottom line is that abortion is counterproductive to all of the things that pro choicers claim to stand for. Women have reproductive freedom. They are allowed to go out and reproduce. It is imperitive that they take responsibilty for that.
As far as how abortion and “reproductive freedom” can affect society’s ability to treat women as equals, I don’t have the time to address that today, but I will as soon as I have another chance to sit down this long and type.
If you are sincere about having a healthy understanding, then I urge you to do what all prochoicers ask of us prolifers. Have an open mind and an open heart and consider what the goal that prolifers have. We want to support life.
Children are beatiful wonderful gifts. Not consequences.
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November 21, 2009 at 8:54 am
Wow
you are utterly clueless,
you clearly have no knowledge,
you have to gain it to present a counter to fact, you are again spewing idiocy about abortion.
Standard Pro life stupidity.
Name your source on your representation of fact. You won’t be able to name a valid one because they don’t exist for what you say.
That is the problem, many prolifers cannot sensibly argue abortion, because most of you are too stupid to get the facts (inference), or just listen to stupid people that know noting about abortion.
Do real research. I suspect you are smart enough . . .
You are basically completely wrong about every line item you mention. Come on, read about one? So you can be intelligent when you discuss?
Please tell me your source of a complete lack of education, your replies are so factually incorrect, the ignorance is unaddressable. I am embarrassed for you. You can redact those misrepresentations and start again with a clean slate.
Anencephalics, complete with no brain, never live, they all die after birth. Name one complete anencephalic that lived in the history of the world . . . please. Come on, they do not have a brain or cranium, what are you talking about? Name the miracle baby wihtout a brain or cranium that the doctors said could not survive then the miracle happened and it lived a nice life.
You cannot because it has never happened. So don’t claim it. Women can die listening to this pervasive nonsense.
Methotrexate, used for medical abortions, treats ectopics beautifully. It has saved hundreds of thousands of women’s lives.
Ectopics have not increased DUE to abortion.
They exist in the population for a large number of causes.
You make classic errors in the lack of ability to discriminate association vs causation.
Dangerous, because your dissemination, will harm or possibly kill people.
Morning after pills are NOT very dangerous, there is decades of experience worldwide that has shown this. They are safer than actually having a full term pregnancy.
Ectopics are not ussually discovered after rupture. Thankfully, because of modern technology they are routinely caught well before, and treated (murdered by your nomenclature) and the vast majority of mothers lives are saved. Where did you get that rupture data, I am so curious about that, please tell.
My goodness, you are so misinformed, it is agonizing to dispute this nonsense. Hard not to, so people don’t accept how stupid prolife arguments are. What are there IQs? Can they not do a little research on a topic, and look at the literature, understand the nature of statistics?
This is only harsh in tone as you, yes you, could actually harm somebody spreading this idiocy.
If you are not familiar with a disease, don’t make an opinion that could kill somebody if they listened to you. What is your training? Where do you get your ideas (they are not factual).
There are no “miracle babies”, that infers mystical intervention. Can a doctor be wrong, yeah , like every specialty some are not that smart, thankfully >95% are pretty darn smart, and usually quite correct about the course of a fatal illness.
You unduly criticize neonatologists, that have done amazing things in the well being of babies. Again, you are so misinformed, it is difficult to spend the time to educate you when I know, you are so brainwashed beyond repair you will not listen to fact. People like you are not persuadable by fact, they are dug in to belief systems that cause so much dissonance they cannot think clearly.
OK if Birth control can cause an occasional abortion, and you believe that it should not be available, focus on that, because, that is a much larger source by magnitudes of abortion.
Start a campaign to rid the world of birth control. Sounds like a great idea, go for it. That just what we need.
“Even abortionists agree that life begins at conception,” where did that fact come from? That is not true. Another misrepresentation. By the way when is conception? When the sperm hits the egg? When it enters? When it’s chromatin is released in the egg? WHen the chromatin is mobilized towards the eggs chromatin? WHen the chromatin touches? When the process of synthesis starts, or after crossovers, deletions, post translational modifications, transcription, mRNA in the nucleus is created, RNA actually gets out of the nuclease, RNA is bound to endoplasmic reticulum, RNA is bound by tRNA, protein translation occurs so stuff can start happening, actual biochemical production starts up, or the beginning of the first division? there are a lot more intermediaries , I just named a few.
Where in that chain does “life” start?
Frankly you reveal that you do not even know the definition of life let alone misrepresenting the belief of people that do abortions, how do you knwo that they all think that?
An OBGYN that does two abortions a year in her private practice. Is she an abortionist? or an OBGyn? Why would you define her as a procedure done twice per year instead of what she does most the year, a birthcontrolist, a vaginal dischargist, a baby deliverist? How do you knwo what she thinks, where is this lunatic data coming from?
Back it up before you say something crazy, that is part of the problem with you uneducated people.
It is not that hard to read for a few minutes on a topic and get the facts. Come on, you are going to kill people that read your nonsense.
Yes, #5, apologies, I believe I misread your double negative statement. How many rape victims have you heard this from? D you have an authoratative source for your claim. That “never heard” is a strong statement. You really think it has never happened? Where is the source of this data? It may be accurate. Let’s look at it.
MJ Fox is an actor with a disease, he is not an authority, and the doctor, who was that person? Is he an authority? What was his name? You have no clue how medicine works, no one stupid doctor on Oprah the source of scientific research, is the consensus opinion of specialists in a field.
Embryonic stem cells are very special and different. The doctor sounds like a typical oprah doctor, only there to write books, and promote themselves.
I doubt from what little i have heard that he is even a small contributor to his profession.
I am not sure, how can i be sure about the future research, it has to be done to know. Are you sure they are not? If so, how?
There is a massive body of literature that suggests their pluripotency may be quite possible for benefit. It takes time, this is a relatively new field. Just like every other scientific endeavor there is a process, it sounds that you are ignorant to that.
Do you believe the earth is 6 thousand years old, that it is flat, that the sun revolves around it? Are you one of those crazies?
There are an endless amount of babies in great need to adopt, we do not need more.
We need better adoption legislation. The last thing we need is poor babies that WON’t get adopted.
It does seem silly to purposefully start life and then go through the work of ending it.
My mind is open and utterly persuadable by good reason. But you have to present it.
All you have revealed is complete and utter ignorance, and the dissemination of misinformation, and the misrepresentation of over 20,000 OBGYNs and other doctors, as well as others.
How do you expect me to understand you with such a magnitude of ignorance?
Don’t regurgitate garbage you have heard from people that do the same as you.
I’ll take the leap of Faith that you have good intention. So go back tot he drawing board and gets your facts straight and lets discuss.
Please do tell me about a world that has no birth control in it. As it appears that is what you infer from above.
You would actually legislate that access from women?
Then a woman couldn’t have sex, because if she did not want a baby yet then she is taking an extraordinary risk.
If you believe that is OK, then what do you believe about a woman and her freedom to have sex safely? Condoms fail, 1%/year. That is still to high a risk.
You clearly are also ignorant the history of women’s issues that go far beyond just reproductive freedoms. You do not even know the definition of that word, that is well know in the lexicon know.
Children are beautiful and wonderful, all over the world. It is a shame that millions die every year from diarrhea, that $1 of antibiotic could cure. Maybe you could save more children focusing on that one. Seriously. You would save more lives doing that. If that is your cause to save the lives of children then what are you doing about those children. How many $$s have you given?
Millions go blind from Chlamydia Trachomatis every year. The #1 cause of blindness. Again about $1 to cure. There is another project. Have you done anything about that? I suspect you had no idea about that one.
There are so many more.
You could save the lives of children ina few days. If you really want to. Get some cash out of your bank account, but some generic tetracycline derivatives, and go give the children some medicine. There are doctors there, they just do not have the medicine.
You are not saving any lives right now as far as I have heard, but you could by Tuesday if you really want to.
From what you wrote, any idiot that believes you may actually die by your misinformation.
I am sincere. I have saved lives, a lot.
My heart is open an objective. Make a good case for your belief system. Because you have not. You have eroded anything you have said by bizarre misinformation.
Go save some lives or make a good case.
This blog is highly visited, don’t tell people stupid misrepresentations that could harm them.
Please , meet the challenge. Is your mind open? It does not appear to be. You challenge fact with stupidity, and no representation of authoritative knowledge.
Help me understand. I’m ready, spewing nonsensical information is not the way. present fact with source. If you do not understand the concepts of history, science, how studies are done or interpretted. If you do not want to present fact, then tell me what to go on?
Your heart?
You are letting all those present children die, not potential future children. Children right now!!!
That goes straight to my heart. What have you personally done to save the children of the #1 killer of children in the world?
Most prolifers interviewed have done nothing.
Help me understand. I cannot speak to complete and utter ignorance. Please confirm that you are over 18 as well as I do not want to continue this discussion with a child. I cannot tell right now from what you have said. It sounds like a child’s parroting what they heard in church.
Warm regards, with deepest respect for your sincerity, now lets get the facts, go for it!!
And do please tell me how many Children that die of the #1 killer of children you have save, as it only costs a dollar.
Looking forward to your intelligent reply.
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November 21, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Your reply was very angry, presumptuous, and rude.
When I have the time to sit down and comment on all of the points that you made, I will. But no matter how much we argue, or how educated or “right” you or I are, right is still right and wrong is still wrong whether you or I can prove it.
The one thing that I do have time to say is that I get a lot of my facts from pro choice sources. For example, one abortionist that believes that the fetus is a life is Dr. Kenneth Edelin. “Those of us who perform abortions recognize, as do our patients, that we are not only terminating the pregnancy but the life of the embryo or fetus which is a part of the pregnancy.” That is a direct quote from his website. Edouard Sakiz, cahirman of Roussel Uclaf thinks that RU486 is not an easy out. He has said that it is incredibly hard for women psychologically. I get a lot of my statistics from Guttmacher. And I do get some of my info from pro life resources too, which makes perfect sense, I am pro life. But I do a lot of follow up elsewhere because I am aware that everyone has an agenda, including most of your sources I am sure.
I was not actually referring to the disease that you mentioned, Anencephalics, I was talking about aborting because of any disease. So I actually never said that there were miracle babies born with no brain.
And I have done work to save lives, and I have given more money than I have to give. There is nothing left in the bank account.
I am also well over 18.
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February 8, 2014 at 6:17 am
Reply manish tiwrai July 14, 2013 I am impressed It was the best treatmet and I can understand why Nat Mur was prescribes. It was a difficult task to select the medcine & it was successfully done. Thank you for sharing your experience.
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November 22, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Hi
I am sorry to year that you felt that way. No offense was intended.
Just intelligent discourse.
Again,
No questions answered about abortion.
It is the same every time.
Like talking to robots. Actually worse. Like talking to a wall.
Even the Catholic Church issued a Cannon on ectopics, and when it is OK to perform an abortion , “murder”, the baby.
You changed your position from “Even Abortionists agree” inferring all to
quoting one person. Why discuss if you are going to do that?
Then again one quote from someone taken out of context
that RU486 is not an easy way out.
No one said it’s easy. It is uncomfortable, to many women. Most would agree.
Many women make that very uncomfortable choice.
It is their’s to make. Stop trying to fiddle with their bodies. There is a lot of other work to be done, and as I suggested you will save a lot more lives doing it, and doing it now.
Just in the interim you could have saved countless lives but you chose not to.
Where is the part of the quote that has any substance. And, let’s forget about any
single person’s fringe opinion. When there are gigantic studies
and decades of experience to draw upon. It becomes irrelevant.
Are there miracle babies? Can you show me a miracle? I presume you mean divine intervention by miracle.
One?
You don’t have to give any money as far as I am aware. You chose to if you want to save lives. And if that is important how could you have given more than was possible (or you had to as you think)? When do you chose to stop giving money to save lives?
If it is lives you are saving, why are you just giving money. Take it straight to the dilemma
and give and work it. How do you chose not to do that?
What diseases now are OK or not OK to abort?
Still not clear,
Is it OK to Abort an anencephalic?
It came from a fertilized egg, it has a beating heart, lungs that can oxygenate and release CO2 upon ventilation very often.
Can women chose to abortion for these babies and not be labeled murderers?
Can you please answer just one question without evading it.
This just reveals the ubiquitous lack of logic in the pro Life movement in general.
You don’t have to answer all at once. Just give a few sensible answers to them in series.
You won’t
because you cannot.
The prolife argument always fails when they are given good questions.
They draw a blank, a silence, a dull stare, or spew out rhetoric or nonsensical information.
I suspect I will not hear any well constructed answers.
If I do I am utterly persuadable, and my heart is wide open.
Is yours?
You were just given a multitude of fact. yet you responded the way you said pro choice people do. That is ironic.
Is your mind open? Or a locked trapped door from years of misinformation and no
skill in logic or skepticism?
Delighted to hear some intelligent response,
Warmest Regards,
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November 23, 2009 at 3:03 pm
For future refernce when you don’t intend to offend someone don’t call them stupid repeatedly.
My origional commment was that there are issues that are considered gray. There are issues that are very black and white. I said that both sides should address the black and white first. We have drug this whole thing through the gray again.
Abortion for convienience sake is wrong. Who can argue that it is ok to kill a life when it is simply out of self centeredness? That is the majority of abortions.
As for the gray, an ectopic will die anyway and so will can the mother. A pro-choicer’s point of view makes sense on this. A pro lifer is hurt by the thought of abortion being taken so lightly that it is easy for them to jump to the same argument that they always use. Pro lifers are not against women. Pro lifers want to end a terrible tragedy.
I will state again, there is no disease that you should kill a child because of. If they are going to die, then they will. But people abort for countless diseases and it’s wrong to even attribute a degree of quality to someone’s life. All lives are priceless.
I used some specific examples for some of my arguments, that doesn’t mean that I changed my stance. I was merely giving an example. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t more examples or studies. We both know that there is data out there to support both sides. There’s a study somewhere to verify me and there’s one to verify you. I did not get involved in this blog to change anyone’s mind. I was just hoping to direct you guys to focus on the big issues. You asked me questions and I responded. That’s all.
Once again you have made an assumption about what I am or am not doing to help people and money that I am or am not giving. And once again you are wrong. I am not here to defend myself. This is not about me and this is not about you. I am not right or wrong and you are not right or wrong. There is a Truth that exists without our help.
As far as divine intervention and church and everything else that you assume about my belief system, and that you feel discredits me, I am a Christian. And the same applies here. Either there is a God or there isn’t. It really doesn’t change no matter who believes it or who can prove it.
I have tried not to use the word murder, except occasionally when I felt I needed to be direct. I want to make it clear that I work directly with women who consider and who do abort. I do not consider them murderers. Most of the time they are scared and have been convinced that whatever they are facing can be fixed by “eliminating the problem”. It’s not true. It is my goal to love them and show them other options that are more benefifial to them, and if they have already aborted, to teach them about forgiveness for the guilt they feel and how to heal from it. I have made many terrible choices in my life because of rear, selfishness, despair, many different reasons. I don’t believe that I am somehow better than a woman who aborts here baby. I could have avoided a lot of pain for myself and others, and I want that for them.
I want to make it clear that I don’t wish to continue arguing. You feel how you feel and you are free to feel that. I feel how I feel and will continue to.
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February 11, 2014 at 11:21 am
Only those of us who have never sinned can cast the first stone. We didn’t have to work in an abtroion facility, or have an abtroion to recognize sin. We are all sinners, and through the sacraments and the Body of Christ, we are redeemed. I am praying from the depth of my own heart for a miracle in Cleveland when a particular abtroionist comes to his knees. I never give up hope and I am expectant because I know that Jesus wants all souls in eternity with Him. That will be one big glorious day, and I will rejoice. We are all wretched sinners, but purified by His blood. I really don’t see major differences in sinners, just those that are lost and then those that are found. You are amazing, Abby!
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November 24, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Beth,
Understood, thank you.
Now, Abortion,
Please Facts,
This is why it is so frustrating, no one addresses fact,
you sound like someone who is up to the challenge.
Nothing is dogmatic as expressed by one’s opinion. A consensus of opinion, we have agreed by our implicit social and societal contract. Hopefully that legislation is based in fact.
I’ll try and fix that where I find it, and correct you on fact,
I am happy as well to be corrected on fact as I do not want to believe something that is not factual, who does? Do you?
I agree that people have different opinions when discussing a topic.
You desire the dichotomous Black or white, and that is fine.
However, to understand the thinking behind that we must understand what it means when we are in the grey areas. Especially if we are going to legislate what people can do with their bodies. It is imperative.
Please answer a question otherwise it is impossible.
I am so concerned that you expressed what you do without knowing these facts, or concepts. Am I wrong? You help women in their decision process when they are pregnant?
I’ll try again with out the overwhelming deluge of facts.
In response to your statements:
1) Is all abortion Murder? I thought that was what you said. Please confirm that or tell me what words to use for it when some abortion is not murder, as that would be helpful. Words are important as they allow us to understand what the other person is saying. Then I will know what to call an ABortion when it is not murder in our mind. As then it will be something other than murder.
2) Ectopic and other extra uterine pregnancies. There are many case reports in the literature of live babies in the abdomen, the placenta inserts into the omentum. So all ectopics don’t die, and all ectopics don’t always kill the mother. So, again, is doing an abortion to save the women’s life on an ectopic murder?
3) Anencephalics, can also kill the mother. If we perform an abortion, is that murder? They are babies, they just do not have a brain.
4) Your conception of the literature is inaccurate. Studies are done in a certain fashion with peer review. That may have different conclusions, however with time, as we see where the error in the study is we design larger and statistically more powerful studies to gain greater confidence in the conclusion.
No one would pull out one case study to support a dogmatic opinion.
One reviews the body of literature first. We happen to be talking about Abortion. There is a lot of data.
I don’t think you understand how one reads the literature (do not take offense, it is just an important note).
5) Don’t argue, just simply reveal fact.
Is abortion murder?
You are not clear on this.
We have to start somewhere.
You seem to have dissonance on this simple nomenclature. After stating that it was. That is OK. Lets start again and swiftly move through the logic.
5) Again, is all abortion murder, help me with the nomenclature so I can speak your language.
If all abortion is murder then are all people that chose it murderers? You seem to say not, how can that be?
Are the doctors also murders for saving a women’s life from a ruptured ectopic?
You cannot have it both ways.
Abortion is either murder or it is sometimes not. When it is not, if you believe that, what do you call it? So I can address it in that regard.
Thanks, this will be productive . ..
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November 25, 2009 at 8:23 am
I was never the one that said that all abortion is murder. You keep coming back to that and someone else said it. I never even took that position.
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November 26, 2009 at 1:15 am
Beth,
Like every other evader of the truth, you will not not answer a question.
Answers a question, please?
Just refer to all the proceeding comments, Or #31.
Look at #5, what do you want to call it?
So it can be discussed on your terms?
What name do you place on Abortion then?
If you do not want to discuss intelligently, then don’t. But do not waste space on the site. Women’s lives depend on it.
Answer the hard questions,
And it is of great concern that you counsel women (that is correct?) based on what seems to be a lack of education in fact.
Just answer one question, the same one posed and evaded,
should women be allowed birth control knowing that they may cause an abortion?
If you cannot answer a question then you are just a Joker and not really engaged in the issues.
Exhausting,
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November 27, 2009 at 10:54 am
That question was not evaded. I answered it very clearly when I said that if the pill can cause an abortion then it should not be taken.
Are you reading my answers.
Did you miss the part where I said that I am not arguing this anymore? This will be my last comment no matter what you accuse me of.
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December 6, 2009 at 12:31 am
Unreal, you seriously would disallow women in this country access to Birth Control now?
Don’t reply. That is what you people do.
It does not matter because people with belief systems like yours are so far out on the fringe, deserving of some psychiatric diagnosis.
You are such a tiny minority of this great Republic, you will never change anything. Your belief systems will die with you as you age. People will become more intelligent. The Republic will endure, as the people are smart enough to not think as you do.
By not commenting you only reveal more of your ignorance by not being able to respond to intelligent query.
I wish you the very best, despite your faulty thinking,
Take Care.
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January 15, 2010 at 1:03 pm
I agree completely, its no wonder people just dont get it. In this day and age its imperative.
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November 26, 2011 at 7:35 am
Please address the difficult questions so we can find a common ground. More Janitors have been killed on the job since abortion became legal than abortionists. There are pro choicers who have murdered prolifers too. So that pretty much puts both camps in the same boat. My point was that the issue of abortion does not revolve around those circumstances. It is absolutely wrong to abort for the majority of the reasons that it happens. Murder to further your career is wrong. That comes from a pro choice source. But all I want others to understand is that people live their own lives and it is not up to anyone else to tell them their decision was wrong. Some people spend so much time pointing out flaws in othes lives and fail to see the flaws in their own. I feel that if you are going to throw stones at others you should elvaluate yourself first. Judgement is left up to someone much more powerful than me. This is a case of human rights. And I am one of the first to admit that many prolifers do need to educate themselves further. In fact most of the time an ectopic is realized once there has already been a rupture and the baby is already dead. Emergency rooms can handle ectopics. Peolpe used to say that black people were basically just slightly above dogs and we were doing them a favor by deciding their fates. If a baby has a fatal disease then time will take care of it. If a pill can cause an abortion than it should not be taken. With freedom comes responsibilty. Morning after pill is taken with the intent to abort if there is a pregnancy. I did not say that I never heard of anyone who had an abortion and then was not healty. I said that I have never heard of a rape victim who did NOT abort who wished that she had. If there were less abortions there would be more babies to adopt. It is not right to start a life and then end it. Women have reproductive freedom. They are allowed to go out and reproduce. It is imperitive that they take responsibilty for that. Have an open mind and an open heart and consider what the goal that prolifers have. I suspect you are smart enough . You can redact those misrepresentations and start again with a clean slate. Name one complete anencephalic that lived in the history of the world . Women can die listening to this pervasive nonsense. They are safer than actually having a full term pregnancy. So go back tot he drawing board and gets your facts straight and lets discuss. As it appears that is what you infer from above. Maybe you could save more children focusing on that one. You would save more lives doing that. If that is your cause to save the lives of children then what are you doing about those children. Make a good case for your belief system. You have eroded anything you have said by bizarre misinformation. I cannot speak to complete and utter ignorance. I cannot tell right now from what you have said. He has said that it is incredibly hard for women psychologically. I get a lot of my statistics from Guttmacher. There is nothing left in the bank account. Stop trying to fiddle with their bodies. You chose to if you want to save lives. Just give a few sensible answers to them in series. yet you responded the way you said pro choice people do. There are issues that are very black and white. I said that both sides should address the black and white first. We have drug this whole thing through the gray again. A pro lifer is hurt by the thought of abortion being taken so lightly that it is easy for them to jump to the same argument that they always use. Pro lifers are not against women. Pro lifers want to end a terrible tragedy. I was merely giving an example. We both know that there is data out there to support both sides. I was just hoping to direct you guys to focus on the big issues. You asked me questions and I responded. I am not here to defend myself. This is not about me and this is not about you. There is a Truth that exists without our help. I want to make it clear that I work directly with women who consider and who do abort. I do not consider them murderers. You feel how you feel and you are free to feel that. I feel how I feel and will continue to. Hopefully that legislation is based in fact. Especially if we are going to legislate what people can do with their bodies. Words are important as they allow us to understand what the other person is saying. Then I will know what to call an ABortion when it is not murder in our mind. As then it will be something other than murder. Studies are done in a certain fashion with peer review. We happen to be talking about Abortion. You keep coming back to that and someone else said it. I never even took that position. But do not waste space on the site. I answered it very clearly when I said that if the pill can cause an abortion then it should not be taken. People will become more intelligent. In this day and age its imperative.com to post a comment to your blog.
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May 24, 2012 at 1:23 am
I can’t stand pro-forced birth. It denigrates the fmlaee population to making their bodies a crime scene. I want desprately to be a cop one day but that is one crime scene I couldn’t examine without total consent from the women. Making abortion illegal is going to throw us back to days of back alley coat hanger abortions. Not a world I want to live in.
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May 24, 2012 at 7:58 am
Good points, Angga. I hope you get a chance to chime in on the other more recent blogs that I’ve written.
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February 8, 2014 at 3:41 am
I do not know of any tubal survivals only abndimoal survivals. A baby can not live in the tubes. I would like to know where the placenta was attached in Mrs. Metzger’s case for her baby to survive so long. Was the baby positioned at the end of the tube where it meets the uterus? I am interested because I have had 2 ectopics in the past as well.
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