Is there a single prolifer that can opine on their position?
We cannot seem to find one that can make any argument without using profanity, or fallacious logic.
Please, there must be one amongst you.
The Pro Choice individuals have extended themselves intellectually, with culture and grace, please meet that challenge.
Are all pro Lifers from Kentucky and Alabama? Are they terrorists? They have killed in the name of not killing.
They denigrate the women’s body to a subordinate of man and blastulas.
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November 16, 2008 at 7:31 am
Pro Lifers cannot argue the abortion issue
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November 16, 2008 at 12:46 pm
[…] bookmarks tagged logic Paucity of Fact & Logic on Abortion saved by 3 others mewchichi bookmarked on 11/16/08 | […]
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December 14, 2008 at 11:53 am
wow
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December 14, 2008 at 11:53 am
this is one big issue cause i’m just researching and i see this is like a war to some than others
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December 16, 2008 at 7:07 pm
There are lots of pro-lifers who can opine on their position. Did you ever look at the website, priests for life. Pro-lifers have a more cohert, logical, and reasonable point of view than pro-choicers, so I don’t really understand your point. Did you ever try to engage a pro-lifer in conversation? It doesn’t sound like you have.
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December 16, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Must I start to say that I find your writing very disturbing. The argument that you say we can never win, I am about to, the only reason that Roe v. Wade was ever considered is because women get the idea to become feminists, and start saying “Let us kill our babies!! Let us kill our babies!” I’ll tell you one thing go to Abort73.org, and you will see why abortion is wrong…with your own eyes.
I hope that God blesses you, and pours his Spirit upon you, and I hope that you will see the glories of heaven.
I am sorry for the way you believe.
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December 25, 2008 at 2:43 pm
That pro-lifers are vile, vulgar, and profane is a pro-abortion deception easily disproved.
Just watch the protestors at the Washington D.C. March for Life in January and the March for Life in San Francisco AND then look at the vile, vulgar, and profane counter-protestors and you’ll have all the evidence you need.
More proof: look at the tags for this blog entry, and see which group is using belittling terms.
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December 27, 2008 at 8:45 am
When you understand that the so-called “pro-life” movement does not save human life, it merely persuades, convinces or coerces women to become or remain pregnant, you can begin to understand the lack of emotional control that is common in the movement. There is in play here a phenomenon that the public in general has not considered: The movement is based not on caring for life, but caring about it.
Consider what a child needs to grow into a happy adulthood. (And by happy, I mean the Socratic definition of “the exercise of vital talents in a setting affording them scope,” not a state of benignity.) Consider what happens to a child who is not given the care needed to meet those needs: Ted Bundy is a convenient example. Rather than get an abortion, his mother bore him in a home for unwed mothers. His childhood was hell– most likely sexually abused, definitely displaying vicious behaviors by the age of five (he put knives into his older sister’s shoes in hopes she would be injured), he is now commemorated with “Choose Life” license plates in the state where he committed his last murders.
Now, tell all this to a “pro-lifer,” and he will say, “You’re saying he should have been <>??” But if you tell this story to a social worker or somebody who knows what children need, he or she will say, “It’s pretty clear what Ted needed wasn’t provided when he needed it.”
The point is, “pro-life” is not about life; it’s about death. And why would the movement focus on death rather than on the needs of children? You can find out by reading Ernst Becker’s book, “Denial of Death.” Becker, a philosopher, explores why some people are willing to be heroic even when it means they will die. He determined that being a hero means being remembered after death– Horatius at the bridge, Alexander the Great, George Washington– and that humans, perhaps alone among mammals, are conscious of trheir mortality. Many of us learn to accept that some day we will be nothing and not even remembered beyond the life of those who loved us most dearly, but some of us do not.
Becker said that one becomes a hero by paying the price society specifies. If we rescue the elderly couple in the burning car, save the baby from the train, thwart the terrorist hijacking, we have met and paid the specified price. If we prevent the colonization of Mars, pick up a leaf from the sidewalk or while chatting on a cellphone steer our car into a senior citizens’ home, we have not.
Now, the “pro-life” movement has a number of dissonant characteristics which have largely gone unnoticed. Three examples: 1) In the November Ms. magazine, it is reported that “crisis pregnancy clinics” are now masquerading as women’s health clinics and in pretending to provide the expected services, they are misdiagnosing and overlooking serious medical problems, all in the name of spreading the anti-abortion message. 2) Despite their much-vaunted adoption rate (10% higher than the “non-pro-life” crowd), their care for unwanted human life is far less than that displayed by the 30% of parents who raise children they never intended to conceive (i.e., the adoption rate for “pro-lifers” should be in the 80-95% range if they were truly “pro-life). 3) The education, self-discipline, financial and personal sacrifices necessary to raise a child at all well have no counterpart to qualify for membership in the movement. In short, people who care for human life have to exercise more intelligence, more concern, more self-sacrifice than those who care <> it.
And why is the movement so careless of what happens to children? Because it is not about children; it is about themselves. They refer to themselves as “rescuers” (society esteems rescuers) fighting an “evil” (society insists that its heroes fight evil), but <>.
Not for them to risk immolation for an elderly couple or to spend years learning how to lead troops to defend their country. They want to be heroes, but they lack the ability to develop the habits and skills which would meet society’s definition. Why? Because they are motivated not by a personal search for competence, but by their fear of becoming nothing (cf Becker, although he never mentions the movement)! The “pro-life” movement is, in effect, a dysfunctional twelve-step program, whose members address their handicap in a harmful way.
Instead of adjusting themselves in order to become heroes (thereby being able to meet the price society specifies), they set about to sell society on changing the price. If society requires a hero to protect it from a threat, they sell society on the idea that abortion is a threat– hence the irrational insistence on the “personhood” of a fetus or even a sperm or egg. If society requires heroic actions, there will be “clinic blockades,” even if this means harassing unarmed female children.
The constructed evil opponent, abortion, allows them to engage in an allegorical fight against their own death. This is therapeutic for them, and it also explains why they are so vehement about their cause. This is a central part of their struggle against nothingness. Unfortunately, it reveals the shallowness of their own (usually Christian) faith. Their God has assured them that they can enjoy life everlasting and has even sent His Son to redeem them– but it’s not enough; they cannot believe the Word of God. They have to experience worldly confirmation of their immortality– and they see in “triumphing” over abortion their triumph over their own death.
So, this is why “pro-lifers” often come across as foul-mouthed and irrational: they are working out their own psychological issues in an unproductive way, at the expense of children and families. rrtl@sover.net
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December 27, 2008 at 8:51 am
Unfortunately, using horizontal double carats doesnt’ work; in my above post, the words “aborted,” “about,” should be in the first two carated lines, and “they themselves define the threat to society and their role in opposing it.” in the third.
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January 15, 2009 at 12:51 am
The prolife arguement is actually a good one, and a simple one at that.
At conception there is a organism that by definition is of the human species. After the moment of fertilization when all of the chromosomes are present, they have DNA just like the rest of us.
At some point one becomes a human being, so what is the critera for this? Logically, I would think when it becomes a part of our species but apparently that is not common sense to all. So, another look… Maybe it should be the most pivotal point of the organisms life, the time when they change the most. That would be conception.
All that happens after concpetion is growth. At conception there is the instruction their body needs to develop just like everyone else. Never does an embyro or a fetus turn into a different being.
Breathing air doesn’t turn someone into a human being. Being able to see someone doesnt turn them into a human being. Size doesn’t decide humanity just as intelligence does not. The way I see it, if we start judging human life based on how developed it is then we subject ourselves to all of the ignorance of Nazi Germany.
The only difference between me and a three week old fetus is that I am able to defend myself, I’m strong enough to live outside of my mothers womb, and I look different.
Some poeple think that life begins with the heartbeat (very fallacious considering that actual death is based on brain waves, not a heart beat). Some believe it happens after it is able to live on its own outside of the womb without medical attention (apparently you are only viable when you don’t need a doctor)
Truthfully, I have spoken to a ridiculous amount of prochoice people and I have not found one good reason why conception is not the time for to beginning of humanity. I tried to understand this, I asked multiple people, and I was never given a reasonable response. Why would somethign that is of our species, with our DNA, that has gone through its most pivotal point, and only has to grow not be a human being?
I’m not prolife to be self richeous. (how can I be self richeous if I’m not fighting for anything? I would have to be conceded because Im selfless for a noble cause)
I’ve faced the truth. We have been killing babies and we live in an age of technology that allows us to know this. I feel dispicable for not standing up for it before
I’ll tell you how America should not work. We shouldn’t say, prove its a baby and I won’t kill it. We should say prove it is not a baby and I then I’ll abort it. Since when do we take chances with innocent lives?
I lost a brother to abortion. He was a person. I don’t care what some strangers on an abortion website say. I mourn him.
I love children, I don’t like it when they are ripped limb from limb or burned from the inside out. I’m prolife because I believe that the womb is a place of protection. I am a woman and I respect myself enough to not lie to myself about the truth. If i went out and had sex and got pregnant then I would have to live with the ramifications of my choice. Sex is giving your body permission to get pregnant. Don’t act like pregnancy is some surpise (this is for consentual sex only of course) The time for the right for you to not be pregnant is the time before you say ok body here you go, here is all you need to get pregnant. That is like saying that you have the right to abstain from getting a piercing after you asked someone to pierce something… Its a little late isn’t it? You can fix it, but oyu cant erase it. Fixing pregnancy is having the baby and finding someone to adopt that baby. And before the foster care arguement comes up, don’t put the baby in foster care. FIND A FAMILY yourself
I do have sympathy for women with unplanned pregnancies. I could just as easily be someone like that if my life had worked out differently. Still, I’m not willing for a moment to advocate the death of babies. I know women who have had abortions and I would not wish that heartache on my worst of enemies.
continue to say that prolife people have no arguement jsut as you continue to say that the unborn are not people. You will suffocate yourself in your cacoon of ignorance. Nazis had reasoning for their genocide. They were in their pinacle of science, remember? America was right there too with negative eugenics, sterilizing people. Each side always has an arguement, one is just usually very flawed.
btw the people who bomb abortion clinics are not prolife. If they were then they would value all life. I understand that alot of prochoice people think that they are supporting noble cause but abortion is what degrades women. People are making money off of tricking us and lying to hurting women.
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January 15, 2009 at 12:58 am
By the way people always argue that birthing an unwanted baby is cruel…
Who on earth are we to say that death is better than living a hard life?
My life has been incredibly hard but I’m happy that I was blessed to live because even though I’ve gone through traumatizing things I got to see the world. I’m thankful for my life. YOu can’t judge the value of another’s life for them. The way to care for kids is not by killing them while they are in the womb, it is by making a beter world for them.
Fix foster care rather than kill the kid who may go into it. It is sickening to hear this reasoning.
The prolife movement does have major faults. We should be seen working in kids lives rather than picketing out front of centners where scared mothers are entering. We should be helping these poor kids who are left alone… But we also should save those who are about to have the chance to live taken away.
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January 16, 2009 at 12:07 am
Elena, it seems quite odd that you would post this AFTER you received these thoughtful comments from a polite and educated pro-lifer:
http://abortion.ws/2008/06/29/comment-please/#comment-799
http://abortion.ws/2008/06/29/comment-please/#comment-803
You even commented on his manners and asked him to post more frequently here:
http://abortion.ws/2008/06/29/comment-please/#comment-800
So why post this?
If you are so inclined, I’ve posted my thoughts on the abortion issue at my website, and I do not believe in demonizing those who disagree with me, and I do believe that rational thought and debate is necessary to move forward.
On the other hand if this is your idea of extending yourself “intellectually, with culture and grace,” …
“Are all pro Lifers from Kentucky and Alabama? Are they terrorists?”
… perhaps I am wasting my breath, er, keystrokes. You seem to be calling for polite, consistent rationality, yet this post doesn’t contain anything of the sort.
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January 19, 2009 at 4:14 am
Как бы мы все не старались все равно будет так, как задумала вселенная. Пока я читала мой мозг умер.
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January 19, 2009 at 1:15 pm
So you’re saying all pro-choice people are smart, intelligent, kind people that display their opinion with grace…..Oh my, it is quite the contrary.
People who display their opinion with grace don’t show porn to cars passing by a pro-life protest. They don’t slap a man 3 times for holding a sign. And most of all, if these people had any real intelligence they would be able to know what a baby was.
How small minded of you to call a man subordinate and how unintelligent of you to say carrying a child would degenerate a woman. Carrying a child is one of the most amazing things a woman could do… But it seems quite apparent that women today would rather murder their child than love it. That my comrade is the most degenerate thing a woman could do to her own body, and her own child.
If you are so intellectual and open minded, than you will tell me what is wrong with your following statement.
“They denigrate the women’s body to a subordinate of man and blastulas.”
Does it not take two humans to create a child? You make it seem as if all women whom are pregnant, were forced into it by men. You make men seem like animals, who only want sexual pleasure. I see now how you pro – murder people are so open minded and intellectual, you have such grace calling men subordinate to you.
You are a living contradiction to every thing you say.
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January 21, 2009 at 7:44 pm
I am a pro-lifer, and I have never used profanity to explain my thoughts and for all of my opinions I have at least one fact to back me up.
I think it is ridiculous that you make a website like this to tell women that abortion is a wonderful thing and every woman in the world should experience the magic.
Abortion is killing babies. There is no way around it.
Based on what abortion is, my mother could come and kill me right now. And no one could question it. She doesn’t want a child, she has the right to “abort” me whenever she wants. It’s her choice.
No, it is NOT her choice. It is nobody’s choice to take a life. It is only God who decides when to take a life.
And let me leave you this question and see how you “opine” to it.
How would you feel if your mother aborted you?
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January 31, 2009 at 1:23 am
You should hear some of the things that happen in abortion, in some cases, they take the baby alive after it is born and put it though a meat grinder, and they say the baby is nothing but trash. Now that is murder. God forgive our nation.
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February 19, 2009 at 8:52 pm
wtf
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February 19, 2009 at 9:02 pm
The comic at the top is very ironic. Pro choicers say ,their right that abortion is killing babies. Well i am pro choice and, Who are you to tell a women whether to have a baby or not have a baby. There has got to be options out there for women, but i also believe that there has to be guidelines and circumstances to have an abortion. What about all the women who are raped on incest. There has got to be options.
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February 26, 2009 at 11:02 am
to answer j.rich..i got pregnant after a rape and i chose to birth the child. it wasn’t her fault that her father was scum of the earth or that im overly fertile, she had/s every right to live as i do. i placed her for adoption so a loving caring family who couldnt have a child could make a family. she is growing and thriving and is a wonderful smart individual. the adoptive family write me a few times a year and always tell me how thankful they are that i made the choice to give her life, and thereby give them a family. was it easy feeling her grow inside of me knowing that a)she was a product of rape, and b)knowing she would not be with me forever? no, but it was the best thing i could think of…..life begins at conception.
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February 26, 2009 at 11:22 pm
Ashley, thank you for having the courage to post that, and more importantly for having the courage to acknowledge your child’s humanity during what must have been an astonishingly difficult time. I cannot give you enough credit, and I hope that the man that raped you was brought to justice.
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