At this moment, jurors are deliberating the fate of one Harlan Drake.
In 2009, Drake shot an anti-abortion protestor who held up a sign of a dead fetus in front of Owosso High School in Michigan. He also shot another man later on.
Drake, who testified during the trial, admits to the crimes but his attorneys argue that he is legally insane.
Just another example of the craziness that surrounds the abortion issue.
Abortion - Abortion Clinics, Abortion Pill, Abortion Information 
March 11, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Drake should be tried fairly as should anyone else who falls under the rule of law.
Insanity by lay term is given. To murder a person who is holding a sign is a nut case, although that may not be he legal insanity.
To plan to murder a Doctor, because you disagree with what they legally do under the rule of law, is preemptive, prepared, thought out terrorism, which may not be a legal term (by certainty) but sounds like murder #1.
Insane from a lay perspective.
The pro-lifer, a real murderer as simple as they come.
LikeLike
March 11, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Interestingly, Kaitland, there are those out there who believe it is “justifiable homocide” to kill a doctor who performs abortions. They suggest that, if a person believes it’s a baby and that doc is going to “kill” it, then they need to defend the baby, like anyone would defend a born child. Mr Paul Hill tried using this defense after he killed Doctor Britton in 1994, but the jury did not buy it. He was executed yeaers later.
LikeLike
March 11, 2010 at 2:40 pm
Unbelievably there is a segment of our society that is large that thinks that they do not live under the rule of law, or believe and support or incite others to not do so.
The recent premeditated murder of Dr.Tiller was clearly incited by hate in the media although they did not pull the trigger and I “know” the gun was not responsible either. I cannot tell the difference between that massive distribution of Hate, and a spray painted Hate symbol on a wall.
In fact when I think about it, (for less than a second), the media is much more responsible for the hate crime.
Spray paint is not so institutionalized, or profitable, not to diminish it at all though.
What do we do about that?
LikeLike
March 11, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Hello,
I am saddened by the murder of the protester.
No advocate of access to abortion that I am aware of has advocated the murder of that protester. I empathize with anyone has felt his lost all though I do not know him.
The corollary is ridiculous.
A large section of the Pro Life Movement supports Murder of Doctors.
A larger portion insights it.
A Larger portion says nothing about it.
Hmmmm, like so far on this post . . .?
Come on prolifers, you have a lot to say. May we hear from you?
A larger portion of America does not even find it on their radar.
Let’s focus though.
Abortion is legal.
A women has the right to choose.
A women has the right to control her own body.
The foundation of our republic is in the self determination of it’s citizens. Trusting them, to govern themselves.
Abortion rights are an absolute derivative an essential example of that right, and others.
There is NO OTHER alternative.
There is a larger picture here.
If we can show the world that we,
An incredibly constructed Republic, despite it’s flaws, can perpetuate, then we will only get better and better. The world has benefited from our example of governance. The failure of extreme collective systems of governance has been a clear experiment of the largest level.
However, If we fail, and we reveal that we cannot govern ourselves, and people do not follow their societal contract implicit on the day of birth, then we fail the entire world. This republic is the only thing the world has right now, as an example. We need them as well to work together as a globe – it’s all we have right now.
And that still is in the context of all our errors, and present concerns.
As like natural selection, we on the net sum gain, get better and better on average over time. It is the only way it can happen.
Abraham Lincoln, was a staunch abolitionist. The historical record now proves that. Despite other efforts to proclaim differently.
To his agony, which often was worse then the melancholy he suffered from his young boy’s death, he delayed the Emancipation Proclamation.
However, in several months, this allowed him to issue it, win the civil war, restore the union, and the 13th amendment made in permanent.
It took well over another hundred years to get over major civil liberties and heinous issues.
However, like DNA, our self correcting system, flowed, on average to a better place.
Abortion is legal.
It will stay legal.
Roe v Wade will remain as precedent.
We will defend it as we would our natural borders, as it is a symbol of our freedom and self determination. We do not export these items in any fashion except by example, and the dissemination of the right ideas.
Bombs tend to not work as well at persuasion, although obviously necessary sometimes.
Despite being handed over by 12 years of Bush leadership the most horrible situation any president has had to endure (except Lincoln perhaps):
This president WILL go two terms.
The world will be all better for it.
Lisa J
LikeLike
March 11, 2010 at 3:55 pm
I agree with you, Angie, about hateful words. I know Bill O’Reilly had something called “The Tiller Watch” and I’m sure the day George was killed, O’Reilly did not mourn. On the other hand, there is a fine line between hateful speech and free speech. I must err on the side of free speech…
LikeLike
March 11, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Lisa, you are right. Why is it that we never hear from any pro-life people on this site? Over 71,000 people view the site every day, they all can’t be pro-choice, can they? I would love, for once, to try to have a rational, civil conversation with a pro-lifer…
LikeLike
March 11, 2010 at 8:45 pm
Are you really sure you want so-called “pro-lifers” to visit here? I can do my best to drag over the people from “Social Justice Begins in the Womb.”
Gotta brag: Their Caleb accused me of attempting to hijack the thread; I told him he was “SO right.” And then their Angelmother posted to him to check out the blog I’ve been flogging to you guys (cut and paste my name). She sounded unhappy but earnest…
Harlan Drake would have earned the so-called “pro-lifers” even more sympathy if he’d shot two of them. But shooting just one and then somebody else randomly just proves he is nuts. That will change after somebody unearths his membership in Planned Parenthood.
LikeLike
March 11, 2010 at 9:36 pm
Yes, I would like to see pro-lifers on this blog. No offense to our pro-choice friends, but I know what they are going to say! Maybe I like debating!
LikeLike
March 11, 2010 at 9:37 pm
If it ever comes to pass, I’ll do the color commentary.
LikeLike
March 14, 2010 at 10:18 pm
All of your wishes have come true! I am an avid supporter of life. Not just of unborn babies, but of those walking among us. I am against the death penalty, err on the side of diplomacy, am anti-war, and, yes, I am a vegan. I support any and all ways of life. Abortion is no different to me. I feel that we have a responsibility to protect life at all costs. Speaking specifically to Lisa, I would like to ask you some questions about your blur of random comments on this issue. You say there is “NO other alternative.” I am a mother of four adopted children. I am sure their biological mothers could have aborted them instead of putting them up for adoption. However, I am now blessed with four amazing kids. Adoption is most definitely an alternative. If you are unable to support your baby why end its life? I garuntee there is a family or a single parent who would love to raise that child or is unable to have their own. What do you think about adoption Lisa?
LikeLike
March 15, 2010 at 4:26 am
Well, Nancy, my first impulse is to ask you, when are you going to adopt your next baby? I know one woman who adopted twelve, and my mother and father had eleven. Do you have an upper limit? Most people do.
Next question is, is adopting a financial sacrifice for you? What’s the result when you divide the family income by the number in the family? One guy I know who adopted five had a per capita income at the time of $10,416.67 ($15, 620 in 2010 dollars). Just wondering about an upper financial limit.
Next question– do you feel all women can feel like you, should feel like you or do feel like you but have decided to take a short-cut?
And finally, how many so-called “pro-lifers” have you persuaded to adopt children?
LikeLike
March 15, 2010 at 6:59 am
Frankly, I think Nancy has done “enough”. You can’t expect her to speak for her entire movement. She is to be congratulated, although I continue to disagree with her opposition to legal abortion. And, Nancy, I am assuming that you do not believe a doctor should be killed for performing abortions?
LikeLike
March 15, 2010 at 9:13 am
Thank you Pat for bringing this discussion back to the original question. I am absolutely opposed to killing doctors who preform abortions. I don’t believe in this “eye for an eye” mentality or feel that any sort of violent action towards doctors is warranted. We are not protecting a potential life by destroying another. This should be something both sides, pro-choice and pro-life, can agree upon. Unfortunately, there are some who call themselves “pro-life” but believe in murdering doctors. I have trouble making sense out of that.
LikeLike
March 15, 2010 at 10:04 am
Thanks, Nancy. You sound very reasonable!
LikeLike
March 15, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Sorry, Nancy, that I let my paranoia about so-called “right-to-lifers” trample on your good intentions in writing what you did, but they are so skillful at misrepresenting themselves and using people like you to serve them that I tend to be compulsive in determining whether a person like you is fronting for them. My apologies.
Here’s an example of the sort of dialogue coming from a so-called “pro-lifer” when I questioned him the same way I questioned you:
“There you go assuming again. I do not have to tell you anything I have done in my life. I have to prove nothing to you.
I cannot save myself. I am a dirty rotten no good scum of the earth just as bad as Bundy, Hitler, Stalin, abortion doctors, etc. sinner. If it weren’t for Christ in my life, I could be the next Ted Bundy. The next Hitler. The next name someone that is very evil.
As for why I am pro-life, there is no denial aspect. None wahtsoever. The Bible says all life is precious and a gift from God. And the Bible is 100%, undeniable fact. Thousands of years ago the Jews already understood that. They had no clue what an ultrasound machine was. They couldn’t have even imagined that in their wildest dreams. And yet, they had laws protecting unborn children. Think about that. As much as 8,000-12,000 years ago, people KNEW that a child inside of a woman’s womb was life. Was precious. Was in need of protection.
In closing, this line of conversation is over, Gregory. Any more post in this vein will be ignored by myself and I call others to do the same.”
Notice how much he paid attention to the needs of children he wants born. If you Google “aborticentrism,” you will see why a dialogue is impossible: they are serving some very, very deep-felt needs, and backing off their stand is very threatening to their well-being. I know it’s not very pretty, and it’s hard for people who are reasonably well-adjusted to confront it, but if you want to test the theory, all you have to do is ask them how many children they’ve adopted. Never ask them how many they will adopt– that allows them to finesse the question.
chuck gregory
LikeLike
March 18, 2010 at 8:17 pm
I notice Nancy has aovided giving any details of how she can afford to be so involved in the community and still have time to tend to four children. Just wondering…
LikeLike
March 19, 2010 at 8:43 am
Well Charles, I do most of my work at the Children’s hospital while my kids are at school. Three participate in middle school sports, which meet after school. This provides me with ample time to volunteer. I bring my youngest with me wherever I go.
LikeLike
March 19, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Thank you, Nancy. The question I have is to understand how you can care for four children as a single parent. Getting paid at the hospital would certainly be helpful.
When I was raising my son, my family income ranged from $7,000 a year to $14,000 a year. In 2010 dollars, that would be from $19,000 to $25,000.
In this state, there is a government office that figures out what a “livable wage” is for families of various sizes. The livable wage is the amount of money a family needs to keep their heads above water for rent, food, clothes, utilities, health care, education and transportation. For a single mother with two children the livable wage is $57,700. They don’t provide the information for a single mom with 4 children, but I would guess it would easily be in the vicinity of $65,000.
So, what I’m really curious about– and of course you don’t have to answer this first question– is, how do you do it financially? $32.50/hr job? Living with parents or a companion who chips in? (The guy who was the centerfold for this town’s so-called “pro-life” movement (none of 158 others adopted, so I wouldn’t call them truly “pro-life” like you) earned $93.50/hr in 2010 dollars, plus of course his wife had a job, but he wasn’t too eager to talk with me about finances, as you saw in the video.) Of course, if you’ve been trained like most of us Americans to be secretive about your income, I understand.
My other question is, since I have dealt a lot with single mothers looking for resources, how would you deal with a woman who already has six kids, is twenty years old, is pregnant, living on $900, who is drug addicted, whose eldest child is the neighborhood bully and has killed two cats, and whose three-year-old wandered a mile to the local shopping center, which of course caused Social Services to seize all the kids (when the cops brought the kid home, mom was Under the Influence), and now mom is threatening to have an abortion if she doesn’t get her kids back? What will you do to help?
LikeLike