On a separate thread, the one about the movie “Precious,” we are having a good discussion about whether or not a 22 week abortion constitutes killing a baby. A pro-life advocate posed the question about a week ago, asking an active pro-choicer if a 22 week pregnancy was a “baby,” and, if so, did the abortion constitute “killing?”
That pro-choicer has, at this point, avoided the question. He seems rather intelligent, but it bothers me that he has yet to answer this delicate question. I have called him out on this, arguing that to be pro-choice means having to defend an abortion at this late stage (or later). Yes, I know that most abortions do not occur at this stage, but some do. Women do go to a clinic at that stage and have abortions and the clinic staff does not need to ask why she has waited that long. She can come in and, no questions asked, abort a 22 week fetus.
Now, pro-choicers can respond with generalities like “it’s the woman’s right,” which is true. But if we ever hope to win the hearts and minds of the general public, we need to be able to look them in the face and explain what is happening with a 22 week (or even later) abortion.
When my daughter was at 22 weeks and I looked at the ultrasound, I saw a baby. No doubt about it. I saw the head, the feet, the fingers. It was certainly not a fetus. Imagine a woman at a similar stage in her pregnancy who feels the need to abort. That baby is very much alive at that point (although not viable) and, after the surgery, that baby is not alive. What happened in the interim? Do pro-choicers really believe that a “fetus” was just “terminated?” Gimme a break.
Okay, so by now a number of my pro-choice colleagues are ready to kill, uh, abort, me now, right?
Well, stick with me for one more second.
First of all, this country sanctions killing in certain circumstances. The state of Utah just killed a convicted murderer by firing squad. In some states, we allow families to pull the plug on a relative. And, of course, we send young Americans overseas to kill Osama and his thugs. I just put abortion into that category of sanctioned killing.
Most importantly, however, is that the words just don’t matter! No matter what we call it, no matter what words we put out there, it doesn’t matter to those women who feel the need to abort at that late stage (or any stage for that matter). Indeed, to think that our saying that abortion “kills a baby” is going to enlighten women is insulting to those women. Women know exactly what is going on. Indeed, they are the ones who are either using those words or at least thinking them.
Now, I’m not saying that groups like the National Abortion Federation should a new tag line on their stationary that says “We Kill Babies.” What I am saying is that we all know what is going on so don’t be afraid to say it. This is the proverbial big elephant in the middle of the room. Pro-choicers need to fess up. You’ll feel a lot better if you do.

April 27, 2010 at 2:19 pm
This is why, Pat, of all my enemies, you are the most dangerous — well, except, maybe, for Kathy Kuhns.
You say things fearlessly and clearly and I have no doubt that after I’m dead, but while you’re still alive, women will be walking two-year-olds into these places for termination purposes. What’s that quote: the unthinkable becomes the thinkable, then the accepted, then the desired — something like that.
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April 27, 2010 at 6:01 pm
Not sure, John, if that is a compliment or what!! Who is Kathy Kuhns?
Anyway, I assume you are reading this Charles, but on a different thread you attempt to answer the question that has been posed numerous times. I’ll be honest, Charles, I think your answer is total BS. And that is why the pro-choice movement is losing ground. We obfuscate, dodge and weave, just like you have been doing. Frankly, I didn’t even read your entire post. It’s a waste of time, it’s la-la land and sometimes I feel it is condescending. You are clearly intelligent and I think you use that intelligence to hide your answers. At least John is direct about what he wants and what he does. But if that is going to be your approach, so be it. I, for one, will be direct, will tell it like it is. Women know they are basically killing a baby at that point. DUH…
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April 27, 2010 at 10:48 pm
WOW – I have read all the posts! All of it… Didn’t do any comments because i wasn’t sure in what to write, and to say BS i rather keep it quiet. But after carefully considering all the posts about the movie Precious, that I didn’t see it yet, maybe I will, but I got to say that this kind of movie torments me because even being in favor of abortion in CERTAIN cases I agree with Pat here, at 22 weeks of pregnancy you are killing a baby, or even more, you are killing your son or daughter.
It is hard for me to accept that a person, woman, can practice an abortion after she feels a life moving inside of her.
Yeah I know, I am a sentimentalist, and what can I say? But for us women out there who are mothers, and had experienced that becomes almost impossible to conceive this idea.
Please do not misunderstand me, I am not a pro-life neither a pro-choice. Not sure that I am right about this or not, but in Precious skin, finding out that she is pregnant off of a rape and worse from her father, 22, 23, 24 weeks, honestly, I think I would have an abortion…
So, does that make me a killer? Or just a woman who was raped, disrespected, hurt and decides that instead keeping a pregnancy out of hate, decide to terminate that to exclude the guilty of bringing to this world a life that will have in his/hers gens hate as a main stream? Have you ever being raped? If the answer is NO, don’t judge… you don’t know the feeling! And I will repeat myself as a broken record, having a baby out of a rape is not healthy for anybody! Mom or baby! Do a research about and you will find out why.
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April 28, 2010 at 10:45 am
I think, Sonia, that you are where most Americans are – generally supportive but with lots of caveats/questions. Like any other issue, there are those on the extremes but many, many people who either dont care or who have mixed feelings. I’m glad you are chiming in on these posts to keep the conversations balanced.
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April 29, 2010 at 6:53 am
Pat, you don’t understand the nature of the anti-abortion opposition. It is male-dominated and male-driven, and it has no compunction about using your feelings about a need for connection between feelings and logic as a weapon against you. You have to challenge on their ground, not allow them to use your turf as their battlefield of choice.
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April 29, 2010 at 7:46 am
Charles, I ran an abortion rights organization for over a decade. Four of my friends were killed, my home was picketed, I wore a bullet proof vest when I gave speeches. With all due respect, please do not tell me I do not understand the pro-life movement.
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April 29, 2010 at 9:09 am
Pat i would like to understand the pro-life movement particulary when you have to go thru all of this, and they say they are PRO-LIFE? hummmm!!!!
How funny is the choice of words here right!
Abortion is not the doctors choice, they are there only to do a work that they are being paid for and the choice was from somebody elses…
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May 6, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Oh, sorry Pat, #2. Kathy Kuhns is a very active child-killing involved woman. She thinks I am the worst thing that’s ever happened to the pro-life movement, and I think she is. I have a day’s reading devoted to this that I will send to anyone who asks.
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May 7, 2010 at 6:37 am
Pat, you are fighting the so-called “pro-life” movement on THEIR TERMS. It’s time to change the terms of the debate. Even John Dunke has realized how foolish it is for the Florida people to sport license plates commemorating Ted Bundy and his five last victims. As long as Americans grant the movement its facade of sanity and its pretense of care for human life, you will not have seen the death of your friends redressed.
Sonia, your reaction to the movie “Precious” about the issue of abortion shows once again how the so-called “pro-life” movement has directed people’s attention toward the horror of abortion and away from the real issue underlying the need for it– care for human life. I encourage you to take a look into the neurotic compulsion that underlies the movement: click on the link my name provides. It’s the start of a tour which explains why those people mostly don’t and more importantly CAN’T (as John has stated for himself) care for real human life. They deserve to be pitied into oblivion.
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