“What the hell is a partial birth abortion?”
Sitting at my desk at the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, I looked at my staff person quizzically, not understanding what she was talking about. She had just told me about legislation that had been recently introduced in the Congress called “The Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act.” She then proceeded to tell me about this abortion procedure.
According to the legislation and the accompanying statements, the abortion doctor would enter the pregnant woman’s birth canal and use forceps drag down the still-alive baby to the point where it’s torso was hanging outside the woman, the head still inside. He would then inject a suction-like instrument into the head of the fetus and take out the contents of the brain. The head would then shrink and the doctor would slide out the dead fetus.
I looked at my staff person as if she were from outer space, not comprehending what she had just described. Now, I had seen a number of late term abortions and, believe me, they are not pretty. But this sounded downright bizarre. We later learned that this abortion technique had been “pioneered” by Doctor Martin Haskell of Ohio who used it because he thought it would cause less trauma to a woman with a tight cervix and small birth canal. Indeed, Haskell apparently had attended a meeting of the National Abortion Federation and presented a “white paper” on the technique to an audience of doctors. He referred to the procedure as an “Intact D&X.”
Then – and don’t ask me how – someone in the pro-life movement got hold of this paper and it went global. And somewhere along the line some incredibly clever person, who no doubt had a background in public relations, re-named the procedure a “partial birth abortion.” I always thought that person deserved some kind of bonus for being so imaginative.
The pro-choice movement, on the other hand, was flabbergasted. It was always pretty obvious to me that the pro-choice leadership had always been uncomfortable with the actual abortion procedure and those who performed them. In fact, when I lobbied for the National Abortion Rights Action League I remember several conversations to that effect. They all knew that abortions were not pretty and always tried to steer the conversation back to “choice,” but when word got out about this legislation, they were stunned. Their first calls were to the National Abortion Federation, Planned Parenthood and our organization. Suddenly, they had to talk about abortion.
My first response was to call a number of our doctors who did later abortions to see if they knew about this procedure. I quickly learned that several of them actually used a variation of the procedure where the fetus was first injected with a drug called digoxin, thus killing it. Then, the fetus was dragged down, the contents of the brain were removed and then it was pulled
out.
After collecting and sharing information on the procedure, the pro-choice groups had a strategic decision to make: should they fight the bill?
My immediate reaction was that there was no way we could ultimately win this battle. I got that sense after talking to a friend of mine, Congressman Jim Moran, who was very pro-choice and who told me he could not defend this kind of procedure. If we were going to lose Jim, we could not win. So, I argued that we should lie down and let this bill pass on a unanimous vote. I gave two reasons. The first was that as far as I could tell, if this bill became law it would affect only ONE doctor in the entire nation – Doctor Haskell. That’s because the legislation prohibited using this procedure on a “live” fetus. All of the other doctors killed the fetus first then they performed the procedure. The legislation (as confirmed by the Center for Reproductive Rights) would not have affected those doctors. The second reason I suggested we roll over was that I could see that it would be a public relations nightmare. If we opposed the bill, it would engender a furious national debate – and there was no way we would win it. I mean, how the hell could we go on television and justify this procedure to the American public? Now, don’t get me wrong, I always felt that this procedure was very legitimate and, in some ways, I thought it was more “humane” than a regular D&E where the doctor uses forceps to extract the parts of the fetus. But how the heck do you talk to the media about this procedure?
Ultimately, the pro-choice groups decided to fight the legislation. Honestly, I never heard a real good reason given internally. Then, on the public front, they started to argue that there were “only” a small amount of the procedures performed in the first place and that, when performed, they were used only in very extreme circumstances, such as when a woman’s life was in danger. That started the pro-choice movement on a very slippery slope which ultimately resulted in disaster.
More about that later.


May 1, 2011 at 3:52 pm
“Disaster”! We’re killing over a million babies every year and we’ve suffered a disaster?
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May 2, 2011 at 3:08 pm
We’re talking fetuses, not babies. There is a qualitative difference.
A fetus is a humanoid being with a potential to become human if it is nurtured for at least the first seven– and usually fourteen to eighteen– years of its existence.
A baby is a being of any developmental stage, from embryo to eighty-five years of age, whom someone has chosen to nurture and cherish no matter what.
So-called “pro-lifers” deliberately seek to confuse and conflate the two in order to partray themselves as “rescuers.”
A milliion abortions is no disaster. One child born to suffer because of adult ignorance, neglect or brutality is a disaster.
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May 2, 2011 at 5:04 pm
The only qualitative difference here, Chuckles, is between you and me. You sit in fog; I soar. God sent me here to lift that fog, among other things.
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May 3, 2011 at 5:46 am
Yes, you have to be a hero– or at least make it appear that you are. Thank heavens you don’t have to work hard at it. Good luck in maintaining the persona.
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May 4, 2011 at 9:59 pm
Sir you cannot soar very high with premonitions of a “man made” concept? God sent you no where except circumventing thoughout your own thoughts.
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May 4, 2011 at 10:13 pm
Chuckles, get back here; save me from these guys!
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May 3, 2011 at 8:04 pm
What a nut job you are!
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May 3, 2011 at 8:32 pm
What a stupid comment Dunkle.
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May 4, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Eric, Berkley — Do you mean, “What a stupid comment, Dunkle” or “What a stupid comment Dunkle”? If the latter, what is a “comment Dunkle”?
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February 9, 2014 at 5:36 am
hii!! i\’ve tried making my pkecaans…but they were not as fluffy as yours. i made my batter a night earlier, let it rest in room temp for an hour then put it into the fridge…is that why it didn\’t turn out to be fluffy?and i pan fried it with a bit with oil.please let me know where are my mistakes 😦
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May 1, 2011 at 5:32 pm
And what you should have done instead, Pat, was go on the offensive and show who was peddling this legislation, and why. How many others besides Susan Carpenter MacMillan dump on abortion at the same time they avail themselves of it? How many others like Carol Everett let their fear and hatred of abortion warp their professionalism in counseling? How many others like Monica Migliore Miller profess a passionate concern for “unborn innocents” and get arrested for leaving her own baby unattended in her car?
The fact is, the whole movement is a dysfunctional self-help program, and “pro-choicers” just keep trying to fight it on the terms it has defined.
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May 1, 2011 at 7:35 pm
I rarely know what Chuckles is saying, but I think he’s right anyway. It’s the prolifers’ fault, not the pro-deathers’.
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May 2, 2011 at 12:03 pm
going after the person who was peddling the legislation and why would have been an incredible waste of time. The average citizen wouldn’t give a crap. They focused on the issue, on the graphic photos and the pro-choice groups had their handful just trying to respond to that stuff. They did not have the resources to try to villify Rick Santorum or Joe Canady.
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May 2, 2011 at 4:18 pm
It’s not a one-issue fight; it’s a long, slow, consistent struggle to get the reality out there– very much like what the Republicans did to liberals over the last fifty years, but without lies, anger and fear as tools.
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May 1, 2011 at 10:01 pm
Legislators should not be micromanaging doctors – especially when they have no idea what they are voting on.
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May 2, 2011 at 7:46 am
You’re right, Miriam, but they should be micromanaging seriel killers.
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May 2, 2011 at 11:12 am
Good point miriam,
The ProLifers are stupid, with only an agenda of misogyny.
They are often corrupt and disgusting Christians.
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May 2, 2011 at 12:04 pm
Be careful, Miriam…Do you really want docs to have no regulation at all?
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May 3, 2011 at 5:39 am
Don’t believe I was expressing that.
People who have no idea about what they are legislating should not be micromanaging doctor practice and procedures.
Doctors should not be legislating micromanagement of bank and financial policy reform unless they know what they are doing.
Do you disagree?
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May 3, 2011 at 8:00 pm
Reply?
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May 2, 2011 at 9:08 am
I agree with you, Pat. The old D&E is more so how you would say, medieval almost but explaining these procedures to the american public would be an out right fail, you would eventually end up hurting the cause instead of supporting it. but over all the white paper needs to be put back in the light of its prestige in medical science rather than be banned.
micromanaging serial killers would do more harm than good i think, or are you talking about the free ones?
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May 2, 2011 at 10:42 am
I just met a woman whose daughter has lost custody of her one-month-old baby. The mother, a seventeen-year-old, not only has an addiction problem, but also when she was moved post-partum into a home for pregnant teens, she was found unable to care for the baby even in that highly supportive situation.
The tragedy in this situation is obvious.
I offer it as a contrast to the so-called “pro-life” fixation on “serial killers” mentioned above.
The person who posted that has refused repeatedly to consider what any child needs after he insists that the child be born. The fascination he displays toward “serial killling,” “torture” and so forth is in stark contrast toward his insouciance toward the needs of children. Is there any reader out there who would trust him to baby-sit their child?
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May 2, 2011 at 11:31 am
This does go on and on doesn’t it: “The person who posted that has refused repeatedly to consider what any child needs after he insists that the child be born.”
My job, Chuckles, is to try to prevent someone from taking advantage of a diabolical law and killing that child before she is born. After she’s born, she’s safe because then it is not yet legal to kill her.
But suppose the law changes to make it legal to kill her up until her second birthday. Then you would try to prevent someone from killing her and her “brothers and sisters”, and you would not have time to worry about them after that when they are safe because so many other “year olds” are hoping for someone to save them too.
So leave this angle; even “feral children” is better than this.
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May 2, 2011 at 12:07 pm
After you’ve saved the baby, she is “safe?” How the heck do you know that? How do you know, John, that she will not be the subject of a lifetime of physical abuse?
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May 2, 2011 at 2:56 pm
Sure that’s bad; but torturing her to death is worse.
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May 2, 2011 at 4:20 pm
So you consider a humanoid life terminated before birth to be an evil greater than a human life spent without hope of nurture, education and achievement? If so, then what’s the point of living?
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May 2, 2011 at 5:07 pm
Chuck, how you talk! You may not kill somebodey because you think she may not have all the advantages!
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May 3, 2011 at 5:42 am
You continue to deliberately obscure the real message, one which I have repeated consistently– unless YOU pledge to do whatever you can to nurture that resulting child, you are abandoning it– and since you ARE abandoning it, why do you try to make such a big deal of anything that happens to it when it isn’t yet even a child?
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May 3, 2011 at 8:09 am
No, Chuck, you “continue to deliberately obscure the real message” . . . when you say “it isn’t yet even a child.” You yourself, when you are not proselytizing, have called her a child both before and after birth.
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May 3, 2011 at 10:27 am
Then, to use you definition of what a fetus is, why are you abandoning children rather than protecting them from life’s perils?
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May 3, 2011 at 12:59 pm
I am not abandoning them. I am trying to protect them from the worst peril that can befall them — death by torture.
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May 3, 2011 at 1:35 pm
Why do you not care for them afterward?
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May 3, 2011 at 4:00 pm
because their brothers and sisters face death by torture then
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May 3, 2011 at 5:07 pm
So, you focus on abortion and neglect to care for real humans?!?!?!?!?!? That makes you abortion-centered, you know…
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May 3, 2011 at 7:56 pm
John,
There are worse deaths.
Like your’s.
When you find your self in He’ll for an eternity you will shocked and surprised how horrible it is.
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May 2, 2011 at 4:28 pm
By your own admission, you know nothing and you refuse to learn anything about feral children; your point fails. And don’t bother trying to move the goalposts.
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May 2, 2011 at 5:10 pm
I know very little about feral children and you probably know less. At least you’ve told me nothing, nothing! What’s the big secret? Is it that there’s nothing there?
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May 3, 2011 at 5:42 am
This Dunkle is an intellectual vacuum.
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May 4, 2011 at 10:10 am
cleaner
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July 8, 2011 at 9:57 pm
” ….so forth is in stark contrast toward his insouciance toward the needs of children.”
God! Why don’t you get off your pedestal. It is absolutely astounding that the very nature that is within us, exhalts its “self” that you are greater that God. Ha. What a corker you guys are! How eloquent you all sound with all your great wisdom about why we should abort children before diaster! lol what a crack up. You not only discount the very nature in yourself that it is a wrong thing to do, but then you stand upon your pedestals and invisibly instruct God what horrible and “insouciance” mistakes He is making (God opens EVERY womb). No matter, lol!
“In your wisdom, you become fools” (The thumping Bible.. gosh darn thoes evil christians!) I had to laugh out loud on THAT one. The pot calling the kettle black!!
For your information, whether you care to believe it or not – I suppose you do NOT care to believe it – God is the one who opens the womb, be it good, bad or ugly in >YOUR< mind. Not rapists, not anyone, but God. God brings life into the world.
God says that He saw you in the womb and drew you upon His hand' so to speak but what the message He conveys to you is that you MATTER. Got that?
NO bother. Don't believe. But it doesn't change the Truth.
God creates life. . God opens the womb.
EVER SINGLE TIME NO MATTER WHAT
Thanks George Will for opening up my eyes on that and that changed my life forever; I will forever be greatful to you for that.
PS How many of you pro-choices have ACTUALLY gone to a partial birth abortion website and look at the picture. I dare you. But get ready. Like the doctor above that said, though we do it, it's not pretty. Take a look, and see if you can stomach it. Right. Uh-huh.
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May 2, 2011 at 12:12 pm
I AM SO SORRY……. BUT IF I KNOW ANYBODY (DOCTOR) WHO DOES THAT – I WILL PERSONALLY CALL THE POLICE…
THAT IS MURDER FOR SURE…… AND I WILL HAVE TO GIVE JOHN D. THE CREDIT FOR HIM BEING SO FANATIC ABOUT THE SUBJECT.
CAN AND WONT AGREE WITH THIS KIND OF ABORTION NOT TODAY NOT EVER……..
A healthy baby, because if it is already on the 3rd trimester, is a baby, to receive this i would call cruelty!!!!!!!!
Come on…
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May 2, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Sonia, I knew of one woman who wanted an abortion at 32 weeks. She had many reasons for putting off a decision for that long– none of them good. I don’t know if she had an abortion, if she delivered, or if she kept the baby, gave it up for adoption or had it taken by the state. All I do know is there is no way I would have left my child with her for fifteen minutes. I would not have regretted her choice.
If she’d been able to get her act together, she would have been able to decide one way or the other much earlier, but she had a lot of baggage in the way.
Why is it that so-called “pro-lifers” can’t understand that there are fates far worse than abortion????
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May 3, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Why would you not have “left your child with her for fifteen minutes?” Did you think she would kill your child??
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May 3, 2011 at 2:40 pm
At the very least, she would have frightened him. Why should I let hinm face that, if not worse?
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May 3, 2011 at 2:15 pm
so, Sonia, that abortion is not okay but the one where they pull the fetus apart and remove the pieces is okay?
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May 3, 2011 at 3:23 pm
????
Is not all the same… and if you read what i say i am not saying that abortion is not ok! NOT OK is to terminate a pregnancy when the BABY is ready to born without any reason for besides you being selfish… I don’t think i said anything otherwise!
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May 3, 2011 at 7:34 pm
Thank you for making your statement clearer.
It sounded like you were against abortions to save a mother’s life or severe fetal defects.
You write like you have a good brain in your cranium!
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May 3, 2011 at 8:16 pm
Has anyone done what you proclaim?
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February 9, 2014 at 3:57 am
Everyone who has seen this cake will carry a broad smile on the face, what a beautiful bahdrtiy cake.Wish your mother a happy bahdrtiy & many, many good years to come
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May 3, 2011 at 8:18 pm
You need to clarify your position, it is hard to understand what you r saying.
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May 4, 2011 at 8:36 am
I don’t need to clarify anything to you or anybody!
I think on my own and i act on my own!
Because if i do a mistake, i will have to pay myself, neither you or anybody will come to help!
I have principals, what i don’t think people understand, but again, that is not my problem, each one think like they want to think and act as they want to act.
My opinion can be exposed in here like everybody else… it can be criticized like everybody else, but that won’t change my principals or either damage my beliefs…
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May 4, 2011 at 9:19 am
It seems like you replying to me,
But again I am confused.
I merely asked that you rephrase what you wrote so I could understand what you were writing.
If you don’t want me (or others) to understand, that’s fine too. But I would have trouble understanding why you are commenting. I, personally would not be offended if someone did not understand something I wrote, I would try and help them understand it.
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May 4, 2011 at 10:01 am
I did that bellow…
I don’t get offended easily, hard skin was created thru the years…
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May 2, 2011 at 12:17 pm
A regular abortion, sorry to call regular, on the first few weeks of pregnancy, i think is better than to let one more child to be born and abused, but to wait a whole pregnancy and at the delivery or close to the delivery do that, that is murder with all the words…
I know Pat would say that this is better than to see all the abused children that already exists and so on, but can conceive the idea of killing a “baby” ready to be born… Abortion should not be used for regretting issues of disturbed women. AGAIN on the first few weeks, i personally don’t see a problem but that is it. I draw a line on reasonable and stupid and that is it!
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May 2, 2011 at 4:26 pm
All you have to do is apply to one of the social service agencies to adopt, Sonia. Have you conisidered that?
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May 3, 2011 at 9:12 am
Single…. they won’t approve me… Back a few years i tried but the answer was a big NO!
They rather have children suffering than to give them a chance…
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May 3, 2011 at 11:47 am
Sonia: Build up a track record; it works every time. Step one: volunteer at a parent-child center. A couple of years with that will give you tons of credibility with the parenting community. Or start at step two: Be a Big Sister and at the same time network with the guardianship community. Step 3: Foster parent. This is often the route to adoption no matter if you’re married, single, or in a same-sex relationship. But regardless of your marital status or sexual orientation, once you show them you have the right stuff, they’ll welcome you with open arms.
This offer void in some states.
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May 3, 2011 at 1:34 pm
Thanks John. I will try that!
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May 3, 2011 at 2:18 pm
Sonia: I have always been clear. I do NOT support an abortion after the fetus is viable unless the woman’s health/life was endangered or unless they found a serious fetal defect. And let’s not forget that the vast, vast majority of abortions are perform in the first trimester. These arguments about third trimester abortions are silly cause they rarely happen…
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May 4, 2011 at 10:09 am
See Chuck? When you talk reasonably, people think you’re me!
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May 3, 2011 at 5:46 am
Sonia,
I don’t understand your position.
R U against Abortion after a certain number of days?
If so, how many days?
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May 3, 2011 at 10:44 am
Miriam, i am not against abortion. I am against using abortion for what is convenient to a person.
Example: If a teen gets pregnant and she decide to have an abortion; as a single mother at the age of 15 myself; i would tell her to go on and do it because i know exactly what she will go thru. But a woman who is on her 30’s or so and knows very well how to prevent a pregnancy gets pregnant i am kind of against. But like i always say that is my personal opinion and i can’t dictate what other people think or does. ate term abortion is something i am 100% against UNLESS the woman is to go thru the pregnancy, like some cases i have read about it, and the child is to born and die in a matter of minutes. I don’t see a meaning of the woman going thru the full length of the pregnancy for that. Was I clear???
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May 3, 2011 at 2:20 pm
So, if they found out in the 27th week that the child’s heart was outside its body, you would force the woman to give birth to that baby that would die when born?
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May 3, 2011 at 8:11 pm
Abortion is not convenient.
Like a root canal, it is needed by some people.
Don’t confuse the pro life mantra of convenience with need.
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May 4, 2011 at 10:07 am
This is the second time I’ve heard one of you killers’ helpers say that tooth decay is the same as a live body. Is that something you all agree on?
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May 5, 2011 at 9:19 am
I dont agree
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May 3, 2011 at 8:13 pm
How many days?
Same question.
Tx
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May 3, 2011 at 3:30 pm
I find funny that people place words where they are not OR make it up… I NEVER said that a woman should go thru the whole pregnancy if the child is with any problem that would cause death right after birth…
In your post Pat you didn’t mention that the baby was sick, missing a head, heart outside the body or anything like that…
My opinion was only on the meaning that if it is a NORMAL pregnancy, and just because if the woman regret it keeping the baby, NO i don’t think she should be allowed to have an abortion. Because than i would have to agree with John, as much as this hurts me, that this would be killing! Otherwise i believe that people should have the freedom to choose either to become a parent or not. But never to wait until the baby inside the womb has all the chances of surviving. Is that clear???
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May 3, 2011 at 5:04 pm
Sonia, Ted Bundy’s family was ashamed that their daughter was pregnant and they sent her away to have the child. They were cruel to him throughout his childhood– by the age of three, he was already acting out with malice. He was never screened for pediatric behavioral disorders, and his death row defense lawyer found out that he was ADD, which had had some significant bearing on his culpability.
Because he was born, tortured and neglected throughout his childhood, 35 known women and possibly 26 others died at his hands.
What can you do to care properly for the child of the woman who obeys your prescription in order that he receive the care that Bundy never did?
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May 3, 2011 at 8:07 pm
Great point!
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May 3, 2011 at 7:50 pm
We’re back to Bundy again? Oh no! Feral children, humanoids, unreals, anything but Bundy!
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May 4, 2011 at 9:58 am
Oh– The above response comes from a man who prefers that a child suffer long and die horribly in full knowledge of what’s happening rather than have a fetus die quickly without ever knowing it is alive.
He also probably still believes that it’s okay to abandon your family dog in a parking lot, because nothing bad would probably happen to it. It’s what he told me.
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May 4, 2011 at 10:02 am
Oh I forgot — the family dog! That’s even wqorse. Get back to Bundy! Please!
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May 4, 2011 at 3:45 pm
In other words, you would rather prevent the “torture” of one fetus than see 61 young women saved from murder. There really isn’t anything worse than abortion?????
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May 4, 2011 at 10:21 pm
Of course there is. the legal killing of anyone over 75 would be worse. (I’ll be 76 next week).
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May 5, 2011 at 5:53 am
THe Bundy victims’ families thank you for the sympathy card.
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May 3, 2011 at 8:06 pm
Fabulous post!
Thanks for the info!
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May 4, 2011 at 8:43 am
Answer about how many days… i always said that i don’t think there is a baby up to 12 weeks and i stick to what i said. Yes, i have seeing ultrasound of 12 weeks pregnancies and it looks like a human in formation, but, AGAIN, i think that it will be better to have an abortion at this time than later.
Yes Pat, i read your comment above about you being against or not.
Not to sound like i saw a random ultrasound, i saw my grandsons ultrasound when he was 12 weeks inside my daughters womb.
Does that answer the question asked?
Any other question?
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May 4, 2011 at 8:49 am
To “aborticentrism” – When i first read this page, back in April/2009, i got so inflamed about the subject that i did a huge research on why a woman who doesn’t want to become a mom, or a woman who doesn’t have conditions to raise a child should have an abortion.
I don’t have that piece with me anymore because my old computer broke and i lost that, but i will find and repost. Not out of experience but I do know what happen to kids who are born in those condition and the suffering they go thru.
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May 4, 2011 at 10:12 am
Sonia, you might want to visit the Site That Dares Not Speak Its Name and look up the comparison of the Abortion Store and the Baby Store. There’s also a couple of bits about why men want to be fathers and why women want to have babies. All of that ties in with what you’ve already researched.
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May 4, 2011 at 10:13 am
Bonding and love between parent and child is a crucial foundation for family integrity and wholesome child development. It is sometimes said that parenthood, particularly motherhood, is a ‘natural’ condition in which ‘there is always room for one more.’ But can all parents learn to love a child who was unwanted during pregnancy? Further, even if a woman does love a child born after an unwanted pregnancy, is love ever enough to ensure wholesome child development? Although it is true that unwanted pregnancy does not always translate into unwanted births, research on the development of children who were unwanted during pregnancy suggests that when women say they cannot adequately care for a child, it is important to listen to them.
Both unintended and unwanted childbearing can have negative health, social, and psychological consequences. Health problems include greater chances for illness and death for both mother and child. In addition, such childbearing has been linked with a variety of social problems, including divorce, poverty, child abuse, and juvenile delinquency. In one study, unwanted children were found less likely to have had a secure family life. As adults they were more likely to engage in criminal behavior, be on welfare, and receive psychiatric services. Another found that children who were unintended by their mothers had lower self-esteem than their intended peers 23 years later.
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May 4, 2011 at 11:50 am
Impossible to make up this stuff: “. . . children who were unintended by their mothers had lower self-esteem . . .” These, of course, are the ones their mothers decided to carry to term.
So here’s your choice: on the one hand you could have lower self-esteem; on the other hand you would be torn apart. No-brainer, right?
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May 4, 2011 at 12:30 pm
Obviously i can not speak for all people but myself. So, even tough i am at a point of my life that i do love being alive, having my daughter and the story behind why i end up being a single mom, my grandson, the greatest joy we have around the house now in days…
There was a time, not too long ago where i was depressed, suicidal thoughts among other stupid things and one of it was why did my mom decide to have me if she was not to love me… you might ask, why you say your mom doesn’t love you……. hummm long story short… at the age of 4/5 years old i only remember being spanked by my mom for no reason… i don’t think any kid on this age has a serious reason to be spanked – another example is that at the age of 10 i was raped, thank GOD didn’t have how to get pregnant yet, and so after i told my mom and she did her drama scene and called the police and etc… we were walking back home and out of the blue she came to me and slapped me in the face saying that i was to be the guilty one fro being raped… why??? God only knows why! – not enough yet?
Well, when everybody found out that i was pregnant of my boyfriend at the age of 15, my mom, the person who supposedly were there to defend me to death, went to have a talk with my child’s father and told him that how sure he was that i was expecting his child being that i was dating another person as well…. so i end up loosing the love of my life, being a single mom and going thru hell in order to keep my chin up until the opportunity to come to US showed up.
So Anonymous “John” it took me about 38 years to finally find some peace in my life, but if i haven’t i would say that i wish my mom had aborted me instead…
When you think what people might be going thru n their private lives you might understand the reason sometimes it is better to have an abortion than to put that life thru things they are not in fault of.
I know you will say, but you are happy now! Yes i am, but what if i wasn’t?
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May 4, 2011 at 2:41 pm
You can’t kill people Sonia, because they are unhappy.
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May 5, 2011 at 11:00 am
John, i am not “killing” anybody because they are unhappy… you got to learn how to read what people are saying…
What i said was that for a long period of time i wished my mom had aborted me for all the suffering i went thru and that it took me a while until i could be where i am now, and honestly i never thought i would get at this point. Sometimes i go down, feel depressed… but things pass and right now things are not so bad! So i put my head up and that is it… BUT not everybody has the same capacity of getting up or to fight difficulties in life, so this people sometimes become violent and do stupid things, so i think that instead having a kid that you do not desire to have, at the first stage of the pregnancy, i agree with the abortion. Why you always have to be so boring!
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May 5, 2011 at 2:37 pm
Talk, talk, talk! Sonia! You’re still saying you may kill someone to prevent her from being unhappy!
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May 5, 2011 at 4:08 pm
Notice that he bases his arguments on false assumptions, such as the fetus being a person and the fetus being “happy.”
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May 4, 2011 at 3:51 pm
He’s not exactly the most sensitive or perceptive guy in the world, Sonia. His job as he sees it is to make himself a hero who will be remembered long after he dies. It’s his way of dealing with the oblivion his death will bring. He can’t afford to back down, to allow slack, to accommodate the complexity of the range of human life. For him it boils down to being Fetus Protector Man. He would rather see 61 dead women rather than either abort the future Ted Bundy OR (more significantly) raise him to become a different child…. He’s part of that dysfunctional self-help movement that calls itself “pro-life,” but is actually just trying to work out their personal issues.
By the way, GREAT info on child development! You’ve obviously taken great pains to learn about a very complicated subject.
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May 5, 2011 at 9:39 am
Well Chuck, considering your track record, it was certainly a very complicated subject for you, wasn’t it.
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May 5, 2011 at 12:55 pm
?????
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May 5, 2011 at 2:33 pm
After your wife left, you had to raise your son all by yourself. He was not appreciative. The relationship is still frayed. Did I get it right? If so, then perhaqps child development for you is a very difficult subject.
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May 5, 2011 at 2:38 pm
After your wife left, you had to raise your son all by yourself. He was not appreciative. The relationship is still frayed. Did I get it right? If so, then perhaps child development for you is a very difficult subject.
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May 5, 2011 at 2:02 pm
Aborticentrism,
You are an intellectual giant compared to the ant brain of this Dunkle.
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May 5, 2011 at 2:40 pm
Hal, didn’t I tell you earlier to shut-up? If not, I’m telling you now.
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May 5, 2011 at 4:10 pm
Thanks, Hal, but you can lower your level of irritation with him by learning more about what drives him. Visit The Site That Dares Not Speak Its Name, and you will come away more sympathetic toward his condition. You might also figure out how to deal more constructively with him. Good luck.
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May 5, 2011 at 4:47 pm
Hal, I think “The Site That Dares Not Speak Its Name” is “Abortion is Murder.” Go there and get enlightened.
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May 6, 2011 at 6:28 am
Hal is smarter than that.
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May 4, 2011 at 12:17 pm
Longitudinal research has found that when abortion is denied, the resulting children are more likely to have a variety of social and psychological problems, even when they are born to adult women who are healthy with intact marriages and adequate economic resources. A long term study of children born in 1961-63 to women twice denied abortion for the same pregnancy and pair matched control children born to women who did not request abortion showed significant differences, always in disfavor of the unwanted children. All the children were born into complete families with similar socioeconomic circumstances. Being ‘born unwanted’ carried a risk of negative psychosocial development, especially for only children who had no siblings. At age nine they did poorer in school (despite no differences on intelligence tests), were less popular with classmates, and were more frequently described by mothers and teachers as being difficult. By age 21 -23 they reported less job satisfaction, more conflict with coworkers and supervisors, and more disappointments in love. By age 35 they had experienced more mental health problems.
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May 5, 2011 at 2:05 pm
Dunkle, what is your home address?
It would be nice to be able to exercise the rights that you choose to exploit to protest in front of your house.
Please also include all your family members and compatriots and any other Murderer helpers you know.
Thanks for your help.
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May 5, 2011 at 2:29 pm
1) 204 S. 4th St., Reading, PA 19602
2) You’re very welcome. I serve hot chocolate in winter and iced tea in summer.
3) I don’t know any murders’ helpers.
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May 5, 2011 at 2:41 pm
I mean murderers’ helpers
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May 6, 2011 at 6:14 am
Thanks John, that is kind of you.
Don’t you help murderers?
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May 6, 2011 at 7:27 am
No, I oppose them.
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May 6, 2011 at 6:17 am
What about all your family’s addresses?
And all your neighbors?
That would be nice of you to help out.
You don’t want them to miss out on the fun?
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May 6, 2011 at 7:29 am
I just gave you our address! And my neighbors’? Can’t you count?
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May 6, 2011 at 1:44 pm
Apostrophes drive me crazy…
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May 6, 2011 at 3:00 pm
I thought CG did that.
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May 5, 2011 at 4:05 pm
From above: “After your wife left, you had to raise your son all by yourself. He was not appreciative. The relationship is still frayed. Did I get it right? If so, then perhaps child development for you is a very difficult subject.”
Close, but no cigar.
I raised my son from age 4 through high school graduation. When he was 14, America had just started using tax money to fund parent-child centers across the nation. The first time I encountered one, I realized how little I knew about parenting. I was devastated also at how much I had mistaken a pernicious form of child abuse for a mode of good parenting.
As a result of that encounter, I not only shifted gears as fast as I could to mitigate or undo the damage I had done but I also delved deeply into the literature to find out why I had been the parent I was and what I could have done differently if I’d only known. I needed to know what tools, talents and resources could have made a world of difference, and I was fascinated to find out just how complicated a job I’d been facing virtually empty-handed. I was astonished to find out what happens to children of parents like me, and I managed to change just enough.
As I have mentioned previously, my subsequent work with children was in part expiation for my past parenting. Now that I knew a lot more, I had to prove to myself that I could have done it right the first time.
Twenty years after his departure to the bigger world, he still finds me emotionally toxic. It is quite clear to me that things would have been and would be better for him had I been aborted.
The thought of people not wanting to care for children in situations like his angers me. I despise people who think that if they only compel a birth, all will be well.
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May 5, 2011 at 4:51 pm
Well, it’s worse than I thought, and you shouldn’t be here telling others what to do.
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May 5, 2011 at 4:54 pm
why not?
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May 5, 2011 at 8:27 pm
Parenting, Chuck, is like playing basketball: you’re either good at it or you’re not. You can’t tell people that if they want to be great basketball players, they must read certain books! Find something else to do. We all have talents.
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May 6, 2011 at 6:09 am
so, what did my son need?
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May 6, 2011 at 7:32 am
He needed someone good at daddying (you probably should have been a priest).
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May 6, 2011 at 12:18 pm
In answer to “why not?”: this topic is really about parenting — what should parents do after they have brought a child into this world. Because you did not know how to parent, you should not be telling others how to do it. And it’s not something you can learn from books.
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May 7, 2011 at 9:09 am
Then things would be better if I had been aborted?
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May 7, 2011 at 10:49 am
Course not! Every man doesn’t have to be a daddy. What if he’s a homo? As I said, you should have been a priest. At least, though, you only screwed up one person. I screwed up five. I want you to read this powerful poem by Phillip Larkin. I forget the title.
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May 6, 2011 at 11:53 am
In response to: “He needed someone good at daddying (you probably should have been a priest).”
Why did he need someone like that?
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May 6, 2011 at 12:09 pm
Well, for one thing, so he would now feel warm rather than toxic when Daddy is around.
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May 7, 2011 at 9:11 am
So, it’s important for children to have good fathers and bad for them when they have bad fathers?
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May 7, 2011 at 10:50 am
absolutely
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May 7, 2011 at 3:23 pm
Then why do you pay no attention to what is needed for a real child while you proclaim to save a fetus from an imagined “torture ” thereby doing what you can to see it is carried to term? You are holding two contradictory ideas.
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May 7, 2011 at 3:36 pm
We are killing so many people around where I live that all my time is spent trying to save them. I don’t have time to help them after they’re saved because others are then in danger. We have to save their lives before we can nourish them.
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May 7, 2011 at 4:21 pm
Are you going to send acknowledgment cards to the 61 families whose daughters were killed by that one you would have “saved” from “torture,” Ted Bundy?
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May 7, 2011 at 3:28 pm
In response to, “So, it would have been better that I should have been aborted?” you replied,
“Course not! Every man doesn’t have to be a daddy. What if he’s a homo? As I said, you should have been a priest. At least, though, you only screwed up one person. I screwed up five. I want you to read this powerful poem by Phillip Larkin. I forget the title.”
Um, so you’re saying that it’s better that I be born, become a father and raise a child who dies after decades of living under a terror I imposed on him, rather than my being aborted and saving him from that life?
Or are you saying that I should have been born and guided into the priesthood by the person who insisted my mother carry me to term, even if my mother might not want me to become one?
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May 7, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Holy smokes, Chuck. I’ll have to back to you on this one. (Found the title — “This Be the Verse.”)
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May 7, 2011 at 4:22 pm
Yeah, consult a priest.
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May 8, 2011 at 5:03 am
I’m back but I still can’t handle this one, except to say, for the fifty-third time, that you may not kill someone even if you suspect that he might grow up to be the next Ted Bundy.
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May 8, 2011 at 8:03 am
And this is where your philosophy crashes on the reefs of reality– to insist that a fetus is a “somebody” and then refuse to be responsible for nurturing anybody is irresponsible at the least, criminally irresponsible at the worst, and heartlessly irresponsible the rest of the time.
And don’t bother parsing the “anybody;” it’s a literary device.
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May 8, 2011 at 8:46 am
Because an “anybody” has got to be a “somebody,” right? Give it up, Chuck. When you try to defend the killings of innocent people, you find you can’t even talk straight. That’s why you have to talk nonsense like they’re sub-humans or partly humans, or unreal humans. That’s why we never anymore read essays defending the killing of Jews or African-Americans.
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May 8, 2011 at 4:25 pm
Fetuses are not people unless the pregnant woman chooses to treat hers as such. Get over it.
the next Ted Bundy is only one bad parent away. Do something about it.
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May 8, 2011 at 8:32 pm
Jews are not people unless the hosting country chooses to threat them as such. Get over it.
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May 9, 2011 at 4:53 pm
Let’s face it, some folks do think fetuses are people. Get over it.
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May 10, 2011 at 4:05 am
Yeah Chuck. Tsup?
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May 10, 2011 at 5:43 am
the only people who may validly think so are the primary caretakers. The rest just might think so. The difference is the difference between producing a human destined to fulfill his potential and one who 30 percent of the time won’t.
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May 30, 2011 at 9:08 am
How did I let this stupidity escape! Chuck, Chuck, primary caretakers cannot kill people in their care! Your mentality is prebellum,
South!
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May 31, 2011 at 9:00 am
The pregnant woman as the rimary caretaker is the one who endows a fetus with the potential for full humanity. If she does not, she can offer someone else the role of primary caretaker. If no one accepts it, then the fetus is not so endowed. You haven’t. When are you going to change and accept that you have to be a primary caretaker in order to be truly “pro-life”?
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May 31, 2011 at 9:46 am
That’s an interesting comment, Anonymous. Thanks!
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May 31, 2011 at 11:09 am
You meant to say this: “The pregnant woman endowed the fetus with full humanity.” Didn’t you, Chuck?
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February 9, 2014 at 3:42 am
Hi Sonia,This is a lovely cake. I bet too your moehtr will love it very very much. How many kiwi and strawberries, have you used to decorate this cake? Just want to know so next time know how many to buy?..:p
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