In 1997, I told a reporter with the New York Times that I thought abortion was a “form of killing.” I said it in the context of a story he was writing about the “partial birth abortion” procedure. The quote wound up at the bottom of the story on page 17. In other words, it did not create headlines and millions of women who had had abortions in the past did not come forward to demand their money back from the abortion clinics because they were snookered. I got a total of one email from a clinic owner who was upset at my quote. Never heard a word from the pro-choice groups.
Of course, we all know that the anti-abortion movement wants to make the procedure illegal because they also believe that abortion is not only killing, but murder. When that doctor performs that abortion, he or she is “killing a baby,” pure and simple. That’s where the line is drawn. Indeed, a few have gone so far as to kill a (already alive with a family) doctor who performs abortions.
And now here comes Mitt Romney, a Republican candidate for President who years ago used to be pro-choice when he was Governor of (the liberal state of) Massachusetts. At some magical moment, Romney got “educated” on the issue, coincidentally at the time when he was seeking the nomination in a process that is dominated by pro-life advocates.
Suddenly, Mitt Romney became pro-life! Today, Romney believes that abortion should be “limited to only instances of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother.”
Hmmmmm.
First of all, kudos to this compassionate man who cares so much about women that he would grant them the ability of have an abortion as long as they can prove that they would DIE if they didn’t have one. Good for you, Mitt! Bravo!
But he would also allow the abortion if the woman were raped or a victim of incest.
So, what am I missing here? What happened to the focus on that little 7 week “baby?” Aren’t we supposed to STOP THE KILLING as the posters say outside the abortion facilities? No matter what you call it, that entity that is inside the woman is alive, right? And, if not aborted, it will continue to grow, right? And the woman is going to the doctor to stop that process, right?
So, what’s with the rape and incest exception? Killing is killing is killing, is it not? Does it matter how that poor little ole baby, floating around serenely in the uterus, was conceived or by whom? Doesn’t the anti-abortion movement want to protect that “baby?”
Of course, the answer is politics. It’s a way for Romney (and other pro-lifers) to try to appear compassionate and moderate. He’s trying to have it both ways. And I suggest that it is the height of hypocrisy.
For many years, the Congress, led by the late Congressman Henry Hyde, passed a rider to an annual spending bill prohibiting federal Medicaid dollars from being used for abortions unless the woman’s life was endangered. Then, in the 1980’s, after an intense lobbying effort, they added the rape and incest exceptions. To me, that was also a hypocritical vote, a welcome one nonetheless. While we were lobbying for the additional exception, it was clear that a number of heretofore “pro-life” members of Congress were uncomfortable and it because a very political vote. Personally, I admired more those pro-life Congressmen who voted against the rape and incest exceptions. At least they were being consistent.
So, Mitt Romney is trying to have it both ways. We’ll see if his strategy works.



June 23, 2011 at 6:08 am
Deanna is asked “why bother spending money on children if they’re already formed at 2 months?” and replied:
“One thing has nothing to do with the other. A baby cannot care for himself, neither can a kindergarten student, a disabled person, the elderly (some), the mentally disabled or some terminally ill. So, do you propose that we kill all of those since they need “help”?”
Again I will point out the shift of focus the so0-called “pro-lifer” exercises: Rather than reply along the lines of, “Well, obviously they need help to learn everything that is necessary in order to become functioning adults; that’s why we provide all those servvices and many more,” she shifts to the imagery of me proposing we kill people.
She has to shift the focus because otherwise she is faced with the question of her moral responsibility for caring for human life rather than merely caring about fetal life. She, like most of us, wouldn’t mind stopping a toddler from running toward the cliff’s edge, but she, like all so-called “pro-lifers” keeps her back turned to the cliff as she focuses on the fetus.
I think she’s stuck at stage four of cognitive development.
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June 23, 2011 at 7:39 am
Your continual accusation about me not caring for the born is getting very old. I have stated to you over and over again that I take care of them to the best of my ability. I have adopted children and am active in orphan rescue among a host of other activities including being a foster parent and a youth leader. So, please stop with the accusations. It’s getting to the point that it’s juvenile. Furthermore, I refuse to defend myself to someone who advocates for the killing of babies. How about we talk about the REAL issue, which is the dead babies. huh? You want to switch the focus to me and what I am or am not doing. How about we talk about how you spend hours defending the killing of other humans? And no they are not humanoids, they are fully human which ANY embryologist will attest to so that argument is dead.
And before you or anyone else gets started, I am not angry, nor am I avoiding the issue of if I care for the born or not. The problem is that I have repeatedly answered that accusation several times and frankly I am getting tired of answering it. Abortecentrism if you want to know what my answer is you know where to find it. But I won’t be answering it again.
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June 23, 2011 at 11:46 am
So, how does it feel to be under the same sort of pressure that an unwillingly pregnant woman faces? She doesn’t want to have a baby; you don’t want to take on another one. You accuse her of murder; I accuse you of immorality. She wants you to stop; you want me to stop. You don’t stop; I don’t stop. She can’t take it; you can’t take it….
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June 23, 2011 at 5:43 pm
I never said I didn’t want to take on another one. What I said was that I very well MAY do that! You forget so quickly!
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June 24, 2011 at 4:06 am
No, deanna, forgetfulness is the least of Chuckles’ vulnerabilities.
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August 1, 2011 at 6:06 am
Aren’t you glad you don’t have to take on another one against your will nine months from now?
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June 23, 2011 at 6:10 am
Pat– problem for your tech support woman– the “post comment” button disappears in the replies among the farther ends of the threads. In order to post, I have to exit the site and then re-enter. If I’m lucky, I’ll find the un-posted comment and the Post button.
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June 23, 2011 at 10:04 am
John, why are you writing pretending to be somebody else????
Because again, you have the same small picture on the right side from when you write as JOHN and the real “what is aborticentrism” has a different picture than your but consistent to every time he writes… You are such a hypocrite.
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June 23, 2011 at 11:31 am
Chuckles, can you believe this? I’ve brought you so far around that Hanna thinks you’re me! (At least I think that’s what she’s saying. Damn, if these AI’s could only write.)
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June 23, 2011 at 6:15 am
Deanna, abstinence fails 85% of the time, FYI. Apart from that, which of the following PP statements you quoted do you disagree with?
“Both people should want to have sex. Never pressure someone into having sex. Be honest about your sexual feelings. Make sure sex is pleasurable for both people. Use birth control if you don’t want an unintended pregnancy, and protect yourself from STDs. Be clear with each other about what you want to do and don’t want to do. When to have sex is a personal choice. We usually make better decisions when we think through the possible benefits and the risks. It’s helpful to talk things through with someone you trust — a parent, a friend, a professional counselor, or someone else who cares about you and what will be good for you.
A good sex life is one that keeps in balance with everything you’re about — your health, values, education and career goals, relationships with other people, and your feelings about yourself. People decide for themselves what it means to them to “have sex.” “
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June 23, 2011 at 7:40 am
Nope sorry. I posted a study that proves otherwise but it is still in moderation because of the hyperlink included.
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June 23, 2011 at 7:43 am
I disagree with PP selling this to children without the mention of the word “abstain” or “adult activity” or “wait” or “grow up first” or “don’t give part of yourself away to the first moron that strolls by” , etc. Kids need guidance from adults not condoning of practices that they are emotionally too young for.
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June 23, 2011 at 6:42 am
And she has since said that in retrospect she would have terminated the pregnancy anyway (i.e. had an abortiion) because otherwise she would have left her other children motherless, a thought that didn’t occur to the patron saint of aborticentrists.
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June 23, 2011 at 7:47 am
Did she say that or is that a pro-choice rumor like the thousands of other lies about this situation going across the net? If she did I would like to see proof. Also, if she id say that it would have been because it was a TRUE life or death for the mother situation. But I have doubts that she said it at all.
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June 23, 2011 at 9:51 am
From tedndebb: “Premarital pregnancy in America, 1640-1971”
Daniel Scott Smith, Michael S Hindus, PE Hair.
Found in: Marriage and fertility: studies in interdisciplinary history. Princeton, Princeton Univ. Press, 1980. :339-72
Alternatively
The Journal of interdisciplinary history, (1975) 5(4), 537 – 570.
Daniel Scott Smith, Michael S Hindus
And you answer. . .?
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June 23, 2011 at 12:30 pm
I don’t understand why Deanna is being hold hostage for her words.
I think she is right when she says that it doesn’t matter if you tell your teen kid to have sex or not, they will have it and period. But if you teach them instead of having safe sex and giving them a little of the outcome if the girls end up getting pregnant is a benefit.
I believe that when you talk to a teen about consequences, giving them the reality of it and not treating them as “stupids” they might get the point and actually change their actions.
For example, we see every day, or almost every day, on TV or advertising that smoking is bad for your health but for those who smokes, they don’t pay much of attention unless start to affect their life. So, with that line of thinking, if somebody close to them die of smoking they will think hard about quitting, so if a teens gets a “doll” who does exactly what a baby does and this teen is 100% responsible for taking care of that doll day and night they will think twice before having unsafe sex…
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June 23, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Sonia, if I understand you correctly, I’d like to add a couple of things.
First, the most trusted source of information for a teenager is not a parent, but a peer. Me teaching my son about consequences wasn’t nearly as effective as what he found out in school about the girl who got pregnant and her boyfriend’s consequences.
Second, what we as parents or teachers might have to say about choices and consequences is flooded out by commercial broadcasting. There is a sexual referennce on TV every 15 seconds on average. The average child is bombarded with 3,500 ads and cultural references to ads (e.g., the Nike “swoop” seen on a shoe) every day. Against this deluge, we are almost hopeless– Channel One offers itself as a contemporary events resource in our nation’s schools– and it drenches kids with commercials.
The basic message of any commercial is, “I’m beautiful; you’re not. Buy this.” And you can’t limit or control them– they are considered just as valid as any form of political speech. (In fact more valid than some forms of poltical speech.)
Baby Thinkabout it works, but like all other forms of education, it has its limits. As I’ve said, the most effective communicating (whether the info is true or false) comes from peers. So, how do you get the message to those peers? It can be done.
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June 23, 2011 at 5:12 pm
“First, the most trusted source of information for a teenager is not a parent, but a peer”
This is probably true but shouldn’t be. If more parents were parents instead of playmates and they led their children instead of alternating between indulging them and berating them and earned their trust then maybe they would confide in them. But I guess that’s not reality for the biggest part of society. I was in Wal-Mart the other day and saw a teen girl who was overweight, poorly dressed and in all honesty, not very attractive. Her mother was talking to her very loudly like she was an idiot, talking down to her as if she were a two year old and scolding her harshly because she asked for popcorn or something. Most likely what will happen is that the first baboon that comes along that shows any interest and pretends to love her will do the deed and then walk off and leave her with yet a more broken heart than she began with. It makes me angry. Children are to be treasured from conception to death. If only this mother had the first clue as to what she was doing to her daughters heart to treat her that way. My point is that if parents treat their female children with love and respect, and parent them with love and respect then they don’t feel the need to jump into baboons arms. And if the males are trained to honor the girls as more than just a party night but someone to admire honorably then they will begin to see things differently. The problem is that we have not taught the generations behind us and to teach the PP way and the Marie Stopes way is missing the mark big time.We don’t need to just teach them the how too’s, we need to teach them the “why not’s” We can do more!
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June 24, 2011 at 9:24 am
Understand your point, BUT i got to say that either i was a lucky single mother or i did something so right that i got a lot of good results…
My daughter was 14 when i enter US from Brazil.
She started high school and the first thing they told her at school was that if i was ever to “hit” her she could call the police on me (very nice system)
But because i was an abused kid, when i had my daughter i lay down rules (when i was still in Brazil) with my mom: SHE IS MY DAUGHTER AND SHE WON’T EVER GET HIT OR ABUSED AND IF YOU DO THAT YOU WILL REGRET!
So i could care less in my case if the school teach her to call the police or not, i just don’t think is right because unfortunately some kids needs a slap on their bottom from time to time, not spanking!
So at the age of 14, with a life changing in front of her she could have decide to do whatever she wanted. But i always told her since she was a little baby that i was her best friend and source of information and proved to her with time that was a real statement, at times she came to me with problems or questions, i always told her that she would always have 2 choices in front of her, either talk to me and follow my advice or come to an agreement what was the best in that situation OR to do whatever she wanted with her life and be responsible for her consequences.
Luckily she always chose the 1st option and with that i was always present in her decisions even when she decide to have sex with her first and only boyfriend (today her husband).
Also, her friends, back in Brazil and in US always did talk to me about everything, they trusted me as i was their friend and that is something you generate with trust. WHICH i am sorry if i offend anyone with this statement, parents all over lack in giving their children trust when talking to them… for example a parent tell their kids that they can always count on them and the first time they say they did something wrong, the first thing the parent does is to punish… after that i am sorry but the trust won’t ever be there again. YES parents can be their kids first choice of information but that won’t happen if parents don’t build that upfront from birth!
Also, i agree with you that TV is in large a bad source of information, and who’s the one to blame for that??????????
US………… we allow that to happen because the so said free of speech we allow all this garbage to come to us and we don’t do anything about it… Yes we should have freedom of speech but i think that if WE start being more selective on what we watch, eat, dress and etc things can change but until a large community start with that everything will keep being the same BS as it is now or worse.
I am NOT a religious person, i hate churches in general because i don’t believe their lies anymore, BUT, now in days when parents doesn’t not teach their kids to respect the elderly, pregnant woman, or their own parents and at the age of 16 (here in USA, in Brazil is somehow different) kids are expected to be out of their home and be responsible for their own life, sorry, that is not the way that should be… so yes, there is a lot of wrong things going on and those who dare to speak up in order to change get the kind of treatment i see people getting, sorry to say will only get worse and worse…
We are the only ones responsible for whatever happen to us and what we allow to happen to us. Nobody else.
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June 25, 2011 at 9:28 am
Sonia, you seem to be a very smart lady. Some people would do well to take your advice. Kids learn to trust and respect their parents from birth up. You can’t suddenly demand respect and that they listen to you when they become a teen.
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June 24, 2011 at 5:54 am
It’s not going to happen, Deanna. Too much of parenthood necessarily involves keeping children from doing really stupid things. This is done by commanding them.
After twelve years of living with somebody who has been commanding him/her an awful lot, it is very hard for a child to escape the feeling that well-intentioned advice, no matter how gently, thoroughly and persuasively presented, is just another command.
The smart parent will use other tools to get the message through– e.g., Planned Parenthood or Oral Roberts. Of course, some parents are smarter than others. Sarah Palin’s a good example.
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June 24, 2011 at 8:50 am
I partially agree and partially disagree. I have managed six very well behaved children with only minor teen issues. (some are not teens yet) The “key” is for them to have knowledge and understanding of WHY we don’t want them to do stupid things. If they understand why they normally agree. We simply do not give them enough credit. We assume that they just need to be told, “Because I said so.” This never has worked for teens and never will. What works is, “Ultimately you will make your own decisions about what you do because I can’t police you 24hours a day so here is why you need to make wise decisions ESPECIALLY about things that can effect you for the rest of your life like teen sex, teen pregnancy, teen parenting and abortion.” If you talk to them this way, not like they are idiots it makes a difference. This is the problem that I have with PP and the way they do things. They assume that all teens are animals and that they can’t help but have sex so “here you go, have fun, just don’t mess up with a baby.” Not true, they are not as ignorant as some adults think. As I said, the key is information and understanding which they get little of.
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June 27, 2011 at 9:33 am
Perfect Deanna. That is why i always had a good relationship with my daughter’s friends and all the kids that i know. Nobody likes to be treated as a stupid, and normal reaction is to do otherwise to prove them wrong… So information in the simple and honest way is how you can keep kids/teens to do those mistakes. I am very lucky for sure because my daughter’s husband is the kind of guy who calls me every weekend to go to their house and spend time with them.
Now… on the post # 27, to say that too much parenthood is necessary in my opinion is the same to assume your failure as a parent…
But anyways, each one chose the way they will raise their kids and with that decision they are also choosing how they will be lonely at old age. If you put your kid out of your life at 16 do not expect them to be there for you when you turn 80… LIFE PAY OFF!
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June 24, 2011 at 5:58 am
To Deanna in #24 (I am having trouble with not having a “post comment” command button, so cannot insert replies in the proper place anymore. Pat????): She said it. Not that it’s going to make a difference.
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June 24, 2011 at 8:35 am
Do you have any Documentation?
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June 24, 2011 at 6:06 am
to Deanna in #21, cit.: “I never said I didn’t want to take on another one. What I said was that I very well MAY do that! You forget so quickly!”
Yes, and I MAY very well adopt a kid next week, but just because I say so doesn’t mean that I’m going to. it just gives me an excuse to make it look like I’m some sort of hot spit. The fact that you haven’t taken already on the child you don’t want to have puts you in that same place as the women at whom John Dunkle screams. How does it feel to have me carping atr you because I want you to have that next baby NOW?
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June 24, 2011 at 8:34 am
You assume entirely too much about me. You have no idea and no way of knowing what I will and will not do. However, there is a huge difference in me volunteering to adopt another child and the woman who is pregnant and deciding to abort. The first being that if I decide not to adopt again I am not a killer, they are. The second being if I decide to adopt again it will be on a volunteer basis simply because I want to help. The pregnant mother is already a mother, her decision is not about being a mother like mine would be, it is about “am I going to kill the kid I have inside me?” Way different.
And before you throw it back at me, let me say this ahead of time, I do not believe in the “potential life” line nor do I believe that “she will be a mother someday if she chooses to.” She already is. I know it, she knows it. If she is going to “end the pregnancy” she just doesn’t admit it to herself. Her instincts tell her she’s a mother. Here are some quotes from clinic workers.
“”…in my clinic, we wash off the tissue and examine it. It is treated respectfully and put with the woman’s first name into a container. We show it to patients if they ask to see it, and make sure they understand which part is the sac [later the placenta], which part the pregnancy if visible (after nine weeks) and which is part of the lining of the uterus. People have been known to pray over it, write notes for inclusion, “baptize” it, etc., etc. Some clinic staff have also been known to say a little prayer over it– thanking it for its sacrifice so that the woman could continue on the path she was on.”
Abortion clinic employee
blog Abortion Clinic Days, Blog 11-30-2005
If she wasn’t a mother then why baptize the baby?
and….
“Sometimes I loved working at the clinic: I felt like a miracle worker. Women came in and their futures were transformed. I was of use, and I thought how rare that was in this world: to get paid for doing something worth doing….but sometimes, I hated it. I hated to see women in pain. The pain never lasted for very long…but still it was probably the most painful thing they’d ever felt. I hated to hear women say:
“I just killed my baby.”
Anne Finger. Past Due: A Story of Disability, Pregnancy and Birth (Seattle, Washington: Seal Press 1990) p 52
and…..”Peg Johnston
abortion clinic worker
Fairfield County Weekly: Listening to Women About Abortion, A new wave of abortion rights activism is spreading across the country…by Jennifer Baumgardner – May 26, 2005
She’d sit in on a counseling session with a woman who’d say, “I feel like I’m killing my baby.” At first, she said, she assumed that the patients were simply repeating what they’d heard outside from pro-lifers.
But, Johnston stated, “once I began listening more intently to her, I learned that she wasn’t saying what the picketer was saying–although she used the same words. They weren’t mouthing an anti-choice message–they were acknowledging that this was serious stuff. How can I want one kid and not the other?”
This is only a few. There are tons more. The point is that they know they are a mother, they are juts (1) ignoring that knowledge or (2) Acknowledging it but doing it anyway
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June 24, 2011 at 10:32 am
At least this one is honest about it:
“We – in the states – have dealt heavily, up to now, in euphemism. I think one of the reasons why the “good guys” – the people in favor of abortion rights – lost a lot of ground is that we have been unwilling to talk to women about what it means to abort a baby. We don’t ever talk about babies, we don’t ever talk about what is being decided in abortion. We never talk about responsibility. The word “choice” is the biggest euphemism. Some use the phrases “products of conception” and “contents of the uterus,” or exchange the word “pregnancy” for the word “fetus.” I think this is a mistake tactically and strategically, and I think it’s wrong… It is morally and ethically wrong to do abortions without acknowledging what it means to do them. I performed abortions, I have had an abortion and I am in favor of women having abortions when we choose to do so. But we should never disregard the fact that being pregnant means there is a baby growing inside of a woman, a baby whose life is ended. We ought not to pretend this is not happening.”
Judith Arcana “Feminist Politics and Abortion in the US” Pro-Choice Forum (Psychology and Reproductive Choice) Sponsored by The Society for the Psychology of Women.
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June 24, 2011 at 10:36 am
Another honest one:
“Pro-choice author and creator of the “I Had an Abortion” t-shirt project Jennifer Baumgardner describes an incident when she was speaking to a pro-choice group while she herself was pregnant:
“Along those lines, I had my own moment of truth during my fifth month of pregnancy in May 2004. A small moment, but it changed me. I was speaking to a group from Barnard’s College Students for Choice when I referred to the object in one’s uterus when one is pregnant as a “baby.”
A nurse practitioner who was speaking after me interrupted “Fetus, you mean. You said baby, but it’s a fetus.”
“Oh, right,” I stammered, blushing. “Oops.” I felt foolish, caught in an ignorant mistake. Later, though, I realized that I had always thought of my pregnancy as carrying a baby- that was the word I wanted to use- and I was forcing myself to say “fetus” out of fear. …I thought of other phrases that I forced myself to use too, like “so-called partial birth abortion” and “antichoice.” These phrases suddenly struck me as legal jargon, words in the service of arguments that weren’t themselves always meaningful. Suppressing language, policing ourselves so we don’t slip up and say “baby” continues the split between our politics and our lives.”
Jennifer Baumgardner “Abortion & Life” (New York, NY: Akashic Books, 2008) p 59-60
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June 24, 2011 at 10:41 am
and this one:
“I remember feeling conflicted about the magic of being pregnant. I felt electricity running through my body. Not for a minute did I not think of it as a life. I knew it was a baby.”
Salon.com, “The A-word” November 20, 2004
I could go on and on and on. But I think you get the point.
IT’S A BABY! EVERYBODY KNOWS IT!. Some admit it, other refuse to admit it because doing so makes them face reality and reality sucks!
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June 24, 2011 at 7:08 pm
And some know that they are killing this baby. And, yes, that sucks. But it also sucks that people love to drag women through the gutter, to remind them that they killed their baby. It must feel really holy and righteous for you, Deanna, and for others, to sit atop your/their perch. Not every woman can be so wonderful but some of us still love these women and still trust the decisions they make.
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June 24, 2011 at 7:59 pm
Sure, but which sucks more A: the woman who pays someone to torture her baby to death, or someone like me, a really nasty individual, who says that’s wrong?
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June 24, 2011 at 8:19 pm
My intention is not now nor has it ever been to drag women through the gutter. My intention is to try and stop the next baby from being brutally killed by educating people about the facts. Unfortunately those facts are sad and horrendous but I do not make the facts. I am opposed to abortion because it hurts the women and kills and kills a baby. Just because I speak for the baby does not mean that I do not care about the women. However,if me speaking the truth makes a woman feel guilty then that has nothing to do with me but instead indicates that they need counseling for the issues associated with their abortion. For you to assume that I am on a “holy perch” because I speak truth on the issue is totally wrong. There are plenty of non-religious pro-lifers out there that say the same thing that I do.One example is secular prolife (dot) com
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June 25, 2011 at 6:16 am
deanna in #29, re: “For you to assume that I am on a “holy perch” because I speak truth on the issue is totally wrong. ”
You speak only a partial truth; the larger truth is that once born, a baby needs to be cared for, and your work consists in getting women to believe they must bear a baby. Before you go off on your spiel about “I’ve taken care of six,” I’d like to mention a local woman who is taking care of twelve– only four of them hers– who doesn’t insist other women bear babies she isn’t going to care for You’re outmatched in your own field by someone who knows the difference between caring about and caring for. You have a moral responsibility to face the care of all those babies whose birth made you feel more comfortable.
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June 25, 2011 at 9:15 am
Are you kidding me? I don’t understand……..are you ignoring what I have said to you on purpose? I have answered you on this subject numerous times including in this comment thread. Done!
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June 25, 2011 at 11:05 am
It is immoral to insist that a child be brought into the world and expect that “somebody else” will care for it.
Abortion is not torture; manipulating, deceiving and abusing a child is torture.
So-called “pro-lifers” hate abortion not because it kills, but because it makes them uncomfortable. However, it does not make them uncomfortable enough to pledge to care for a child they don’t want to.
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June 25, 2011 at 12:21 pm
Let me give you a scenario that may help you understand my point. Lets suppose that you walked by a home that was up in flames and you could see 15 children on the inside oblivious to the fire. There were onlookers and you wondered why no one was helping the children. Someone commented that the mother had set fire to the house because she couldn’t afford the children. You thought that reason was invalid so you busted in the door and saved the children. After social services came and took the children they then told you that there was a group home for children down the street that housed 50 kids and since you took it upon yourself to save some that would be added to that number then it was your responsibility to go get 20 of them and raise them. You would think they had lost their minds. You saved the children because it was the RIGHT THING TO DO! You may or may not have the means physically or financially to house 20 children but that isn’t the point.The point is that you saved them because you should have. My situation is no different. I try to save them because that is the right thing to do. My decision to care for born children, which I do, is a separate issue that I do because I want to. And as a Christian it is part of my faith. I do not do it because I saved some, therefore I am obligated I am no more obligated that you would be if you saved the fire children. The problem is that I see unborn children as being just as valuable as the fire children. Therefore i am compelled to save them. You, on the other hand see unborn children as nothing more that disposable commodities. so, the issue to be corrected is not that I understand that I am obligated to care for numerous children, the issue is that you understand that an unborn child is just as valuable as a born child. Everyone here was unborn once. You were valuable. You are the same person that you were then. The issue to be addressed is that our society has put so little value on the unborn baby that it is disposable. It is a lie of our culture that needs to change. Again, the issue is not how many kids I take but rather the issue is who will save the kids in the fire? Will you? Or will you walk by saying that it is the mother’s “right” to set fire to them? Or will you then go advocate for all mother’s “right’s” to set fire to the house? It is a moral issue that means death to the unborn just as it would to the fire children if you walk on by.
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June 26, 2011 at 5:25 am
It’ll be difficult reading this to the deathscorts and killers’ helpers next Saturday at the Allentown Women’s Center — without my megaphone.
But I’ll give it a try.
Then again, there’s only one person who uses this inane argument (if you save someone’s life, you have to take care of him for the rest of his life). And that’s Chuckles. And he won’t be there. So, maybe not.
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June 26, 2011 at 10:51 am
Your metaphor falls apart at the very beginning– the state has the right to declare an interest in people to whom it provides services– i.e., living people, not fetuses, not proto-humans, not humanoids, not fanciful inventions of whackos. Therefore, a rescuer of real people doesn’t have to assume an obligation to them further than that. As a Christian, you should take pride in the fact that babies who die go to Heaven, and you should therefore be glad to know that fetuses that are aborted have gained eternal life, rather than let your level of comfort be threatened by abortion the way it is not by the slaughter in the Congo or in the Gaza Strip.
I see a fetus as a being with a broad range of potential, a range which includes the ability to bring far more harm to others than abortion would impose upon it. If I want to protect others from that fetus fulfilling its potential for evil rather than good, it becomes my responsibility to nurture it for as long as it takes.
If I am unwilling to love and nurture that which another will not, then I have to do what you would do, if you were not so fixated on wanting to be comfortable– I have to butt out.
To put society at risk because I hate abortion is immoral.
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June 26, 2011 at 1:58 pm
Your logic is overwhelmingly ridiculous. A fetus is not a proto-human nor a humanoid. It is a human. Science says so, common sense says so, experience says so. The question is not about it being human.The question is do we give it it’s proper rights as a human. I say yes, you say no. I have morals, The Bible, and science to back me up.You have some idiotic notion that by killing fetus’ you are saving the world from ax murderers and rapists. If that’s your goal you have failed because there are still murderers and rapists out there. Some call themselves abortionists. They murder the babies and assault women for a buck, Blood money to be exact. Maybe you are looking at the wrong crowd. Those fetus’ aren’t doing that. The bad guys you are trying to prevent by killing the babies are the very ones you applaud for doing the killing. You have been duped my friend. You advocate for killing to try and prevent killing. The Ted Bundy’s of the world work in the abortion clinics as abortionists. The only difference is that it’s legal and they get paid to do it. But morally it is the same.
You said, “As a Christian, you should take pride in the fact that babies who die go to Heaven, and you should therefore be glad to know that fetuses that are aborted have gained eternal life,”
So, you are admitting that they have a soul then? Dr. Curtis Boyd, abortionist, admits it when he prays that their spirit be returned to God as he aborts a baby. Are you admitting it? If so you just admitted that they are human and a person. If they are a human and a person then therefore morally they should be protected. You called them ‘babies”. Are you admitting now that it’s a baby?
Your double speak betrays you. You, like the others know deep down exactly what it is and exactly what happens during an abortion. It is a human being and it was unjustly killed. Just admit it already!
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June 27, 2011 at 6:58 am
Your rage against abortionis very great. In the twenty minutes it took you to write the above,
–•60 children were born who for most of their life will barely, if at all, know their biological father
•42 babies were born whose parents never intended for them to exist
•36 babies were born who will not graduate high school
•36 babies were born to a life without health insurance
•36 were born who live in a family with an alcoholic parent
•25 children were be born to live in poverty
•18 were born who will be left alone at home unsupervised between the ages of five and fourteen
•45 were born who will come home after school to an empty house
•40 are born to mothers weren’t “elated about their condition.”
•44 babies were born to families so poor that they pay more than half of their income for rent- two and a half times the national average
•44 babies were born to a child
•44 children were born who will experience lifelong depression
•40 children were born at an extremely low birth weight, at risk for school failure and for a felony conviction
•32 girls were born whose sexual abuse will begin at about age two and continue until about age 14
•24 girls were born who will become pregnant teenagers.
• Six children were born who will live in a household with no parent present
• Five boys were be born to suffer sexual abuse
•four children were born who will run away from home. Two of them will run away because of intolerable family conditions.
Yet you cannot bring yourself to let pregnant women focus on the needs of the children they already have; you have to impose upon children a long and slow death in life in order that your feelings be assuaged.
I’m willing to grant the fetus has a soul if you’re willing to grant that God is happy to get one more in heaven. I think we can agree on that.
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June 27, 2011 at 9:19 am
Let me butt into this conversation. We both agree the fetus has a soul. But God is not happy because he does not get one more into heaven. That one goes someplace else. Not, of course, where you, Chuckles, or, more likely, I, will go — to the place of everlasting torment. But God wants everyone to have the same chances you and I have. He doesn’t want you helping to kill anyone, not to save her from possible sexual abuse, not to save him from possibly being scorned because he’s Jewish, not to save them from the possible indignity of being both African and American, not to save them from possible intolerable family conditions, not for no reason, none! Get it?
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June 27, 2011 at 1:47 pm
Yeah and there are people starving, people being beaten, robbed and raped, and women being beaten, human trafficking, etc. so, I have an idea. Lets play god and go scope out all of the ones that “might” be potentially abused in the near future and cut them up into little pieces to spare them their future agony. We can get crooked politicians to pass laws saying that it’s ok and we can get people to advertise for us that we are whacking all of the potential abuse and neglect victims, then we can run a humongous propaganda campaign telling everyone how good we are for stepping in before the abuse happens and preventing it. We can hire second class doctors that are out to make a quick buck to do the dirty work for us and sell it in a nice little package talking about exterminating the unloved ones. We won’t call it murder, that’s too harsh. Besides that, it’s not murder anyway if it’s legal and someone who owns them wants them dead. You won’t have to worry about them feeling any pain (we will make it as quick as we can, maybe even causing their hearts to stop beforehand if they are too aware) or mattering because they don’t. Us high and mighty demi-gods that choose life and death for others are the only ones that matter, right? Oh,and about their souls, nah, don’t you worry your little head or give it another thought. God formed them and made this tentative plan for their life and gave them their own DNA and personality and gave them a beating heart to make them alive just so he could watch us kill them for fun. He gets his kicks that way because he collects them up in heaven, just like on a hunter’s mantle. He makes them just so he can watch them be zapped. Such fun He has! Oh yeah, if any of those bothersome people come by asking us to stop or praying that we quit we will just ignore them and then try to turn everyone against them by making out like they are nut cases. And at every opportunity we will try to make them look bad by bringing up the argument that this is all their fault because they didn’t prevent the abuse. If they had only done what they were supposed to do and prevent it we wouldn’t have to be doing this killing, right?
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June 27, 2011 at 1:46 pm
Instead of Limbo, there is now “a special place”? A convenvient way to avoid the obvious benefit abortion would have provided the Green River Killer.
That “special place” is a lot of bunkum, Dunkle. If that were true, then why would God perform some 3.5 million abortions Himself every year just to send them there? It’s a hobby, maybe? That’s one weird deity.
The weird God you speak of does not exist, but for the so-called “pro-life” movement, he’s a convenient argument.
Limbo’s been canned, but aborted fetuses still go to “a special place,” which will remain “a special place” until it gets assigned to the same place Mr. Christopher, Ms. Philomena and the Virgin of Guadalupe all went.
By the way: if you have a choice between seeing a child go to Hell or seeing a child NOT go to Hell, which would you prefer?
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June 27, 2011 at 1:50 pm
See previous reply. It fits this so well.
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June 27, 2011 at 1:57 pm
You really are focused on the horror and terror, aren’t you?
It obviously make you feel uncomfortable, but for some reason you can be flippant about real children who are suffering greatly– and you are happy that they were born in conformance to your distaste for abortion.
Clearly, you oppose the loss of potential humanity more than you oppose the loss of actual humans. Which helps explain why you’re never going to adopt the child you don’t want to raise. Nice to set yourself apart from all those unwilling and unready mothers-to-be you wish to create.
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June 27, 2011 at 2:32 pm
Potential human/ actual human/ humanoid/ proto human/ human like/ human wanna be/ semi-human/…………………………………………………………………………………………………. Thats a whole lot of labels for what science calls a human.
Doggone embryologist just keep on messing with your argument don’t they?
“[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being.”
Keith L. Moore, Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2008. p. 2.
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July 1, 2011 at 11:11 am
It’s called rational thinking and problem solving. Any engineer, mathematician, businessman, etc needs to look at a problem and find 1. A general solution 2. Exceptions to that solution to accommodate new problems generated by the solution.
Even when your goal is mercy and morality, you actually have to think about your solution, not “do what feels right” like an imbecile grinning soccer mom.
I am anti-abortion because I believe it’s an immoral practice. Not because I am an old-world religious fanatic like many of you are.
Forcing a woman who was raped to give birth to the resulting child is not moral on any level. It’s an example of slow-minded people turning into monsters when empowered by a sense of religious destiny.
The mother will spend 9 months not only going through the normal (chemical) emotional ups and downs of pregnancy, but whilst recovering from a violent sexual crime known to cause people to commit suicide. If that’s your idea of “moral” then you need to shop around for a new soul.
The child? Another example of your universalism conflicting with actual morality. Life is sacred but so too is mercy. It is no mercy to bring an unwanted child into the world who’s father was a convicted rapist and mother was a catastrophic victim. If you’re so dead-set on “life” that you’re willing to subject living creatures, including innocent children, to unbearable quantities of agony and humiliation just to preserve your abstract/religious definition of “life”, then you need to shop around for a new soul, because God does not endorse causing needless suffering just for someone to prove a point.
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July 1, 2011 at 4:52 pm
“God does not endorse causing needless suffering”
Exactly why I am against abortion: all of them!
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July 1, 2011 at 12:34 pm
Elena in #36: It’s not often I run across somebody who believes that not caring for the subsequently born child can be on the same moral level as abortion. Prepare to be pummeled by so-called “pro-lifers” for your stand!
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July 1, 2011 at 4:18 pm
May I begin the pummeling?
“I am anti-abortion because I believe it’s an immoral practice . . . Forcing a woman who was raped to give birth to the resulting child is not moral on any level.”
No, Elena, you are not anti-abortion, you are a killers’ helper (I’m assuming you’re not a former MD turned baby killer). You may not kill someone because her father has done an evil thing; otherwise, my five kids would be dead. But if you are determined to kill somebody, why not kill the rapist? Maybe because he’s you own size?
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July 1, 2011 at 3:03 pm
Abstinence efficay documentation in Deanna’s post in #19:P She said: “No I don’t but here is a study that supports the fact that abstinence education works better than the PP route. http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/164/2/152?home”
The study summary says the researchers took two groups, one to be given encouragement in abstinence and one not to be. they computed the probablility of each group engaging in sex in the next two years. For the former group, the predicted probability was 37.5%; the latter, 48.5%.
They then followed the two groups for two years and got follow-up statements from the individuals. The actual rates of intercourse were 20.6% for the abstinence group and 29% for the non-abstinence education (“control”, an unfortunate but necessary term to use in this context) group.
Which is to say that 61% of the abstinence education group had sex, while 59% of the control group had sex. Which seems to contradict any firmness of the evidence. Indeed, the researchers themselves maintain impartiality in their conclusion by using the word “may”, rather than “does.”
The other probablem with abstinence is that it fails 85% of the time– not that 85% get pregnant, but succumb to the Bristol Syndrome– they eventually have unprotected sex. Had the researchers followed their kids for another four years, they would have likely replicated this outcome.
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July 1, 2011 at 5:19 pm
“God does not endorse causing needless suffering.”
Um.
Well, there’s the whole Book of Job, written at a time when most of the causes of suffering were inexplicable. It served to comfort the faithful.
The problem with it today is that all the questions asked by the Voice from the Whirlwind have been answered by human inquiry.But it’s still a very poetic passage.
“Needless” is all in the point of view. When I am burning, raping and looting my heathen neighbors, I’m inflicting necessary suffering. When they are burning, raping and looting me, my suffering is needless. And it’s quite possible that while they (or I) are lyng bleeding in the ashes, some hyper-wise guru will come along with an explanation as to why the suffering we perceive is not needless; thus, we have both experienced deity-approved suffering.
In other words, the statement is pretty much a crock.
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July 1, 2011 at 7:45 pm
Chuckles, I really would rather you join the AI’s and curse me out; anything’s better than this malarkey.
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July 15, 2011 at 10:27 am
[…] The Rape and Incest Exception – Trying to Have it Both Ways (abortion.ws) […]
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