For as long as I can remember, anti-abortion advocates have screamed about how the owners of the abortion clinics and the doctors who work in them have made tons of money off the “killing of babies.” I have always found it interesting that these mostly conservative, Republican, business-oriented folks have taken such an anti-capitalist point of view, but that’s beside the point.
What also interested me was how the anti-abortion crowd could make such statements when I am confident that they probably do not know any of the doctors or owners personally, but why should that stop them from taking one (possibly true) anecdote and making such broad generalizations? On the other hand, my comments are based on my extensive, personal interactions with hundreds of these folks – and when I say “personal” I mean that I have spent times in their homes, have gotten to know their families and, thus, have gotten a very good sense of the kind of money they make.
Years ago, when abortion first became legal, the owners and doctors made a significant amount of money. And that was because in the very beginning there just weren’t that many clinics. Women were travelling hundreds of miles to get to a state like New York that had a clinic or two. There were charter planes bringing women to those facilities in NY, California and Colorado. So, those clinics were filled with hundreds of women each week. The average price for a first trimester abortion was $250 in the early days, so you do the math. They made a lot of money because of the high demand and the relatively few facilities.
Over the years, however, more and more clinics opened up their doors and the patients started to spread out to take advantage of a clinic that was closer to their home. Thus, the number of patients going to those large clinics in New York and the other states started to shrink. Then, sometime in the 1980’s or so, the number of clinics exploded in certain states. In cities like Detroit, Atlanta, Dallas and Los Angeles, they were all over the place. The competition for the patients became intense.
Now, I will tell you that I have visited some very nice homes over the years, that’s for sure. But, for the most part the owners of the abortion clinics live in middle-upper middle class neighborhoods, as do the doctors. I have no idea what the salary was (or is) for the average doctor but I can tell you in many cases it was just about what any ob-gyn would get per year. I mean, after all, they are doctors.
On the other hand, I also stayed on the couches of several owners who had some very modest homes. After the “old boys” of the early days started to die out or move aside, a new cadre or owners, particularly young women, took over and their life styles were nothing like their predecessors. Indeed, I recall two or three owners who actually lived in the basement of their clinics.
Today, the average cost of an abortion is about $400. If inflation were taken into account, the cost should be more like $1,000. But the price of an abortion has been kept artificially low because there are many owners who want to keep the procedure accessible for those in need and, yes, because of competition. At the same time, I have seen many instances where the doctor performed an abortion for free or at a reduced priced if the patient was in very dire circumstances. Remember, while these folks are businesspeople, they are also good bleeding heart liberals who want to help those in need.
I guess for me the bottom line is that abortion is a business that was created because women demanded the services. And it’s a medical business that requires the purchase of medical equipment, security cameras, malpractice insurance and the payment of staff salaries. So, I hate to disappoint the anti-abortion crowd but this true medical procedure requires that the doctors charge something to make it available to the next woman. And, please, before anyone who works at a crisis pregnancy center tells me that they work for free and charge nothing for their “services,” spare me the comparison. Talking to a woman about abortion in a small room CAN be done for free (which makes me wonder why many of the cpcs need government grants). When they start having a need for a physician who will perform a medical procedure, then we can compare notes.


June 29, 2011 at 1:01 pm
I am so tired of Pro Lifers that want to illegalize abortion, yet don’t even want to allow women to the most widely used contraceptive methods.
These Pro Lifers are the nuttiest of them all!
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June 29, 2011 at 4:45 pm
I actually agree with you on this one. Contraception that is not abortive is necessary. Most pro-lifers have problems with contraceptives that cause abortions.
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June 29, 2011 at 5:11 pm
I disagree with deanna on this one. Here’s how I see it. The Protestants accepted contraception at the Lambeth Conference in 1930. Twenty years later the Catholics accepted it (their Church, though, never did and never will). And twenty years after that we started killing, actually torturing to death, over a million people every year. The wages of sin (contraception) is death (baby killing).
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June 29, 2011 at 7:43 pm
and most Abortions and contraceptives in this country are obtained by Catholics!
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June 29, 2011 at 10:48 pm
Documentation please or it’s useless propaganda.
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June 30, 2011 at 4:19 am
Somebody told me that too. He said all the Jews and Protestants were sterilized.
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June 29, 2011 at 1:25 pm
I have to tell you…I have been educated over the last few days. I was invited here to offer intelligent conversation from the pro-life perspective, which I have done. But for the most part what I have gotten in return is attacks, name calling, judgments, accusations, juvenile remarks, almost no intelligent conversation other than from Pat and Sonia, and basically a general hatred of me for no reason other reason than the fact that I am pro-life.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I am a big girl, I can take it, and frankly I don’t really care other than the fact that it is annoying to talk to juvenile minded people with nothing to say other than name calling and it is time consuming. But it does show me a side of the pro-choice forces that is astonishing. For people that are supposed to be about not judging and freedom and personal choices you really do get dirty unless it is your “choice” that one has chosen. Apparently when anyone comes in with opposing views there is automatic hate for that person simply because of the opposing view. What is it that makes you guys so filled with hate?
Furthermore, You have accused me of lying and giving false information. I asked each one that accused me of that to tell what I said exactly that was a lie and to back that up with documentation proving that it was false. Not one person came back with any example of me lying or giving false information. The only thing that was answered back was more general accusations and more insults.
Perhaps you should think about the reason that no one backs up the accusation that I am providing false information is because I am not providing false information. What I am saying is truth based on documented facts. When one cannot argue with facts but still wants to keep their viewpoint they usually resort to name calling and attacking the other person. This is what has happened here.
This should give all of you reason to pause and consider that perhaps we pro-lifers are right. Perhaps you guys have been taught wrong, believed wrong and practiced the wrong thing. Maybe even without realizing it. Maybe killing the unborn is morally wrong, maybe Planned Parenthood does have an agenda to just make money and be powerful, maybe the unborn are valuable, maybe they can feel pain, maybe God does not condone their deaths.
There is a better way. Death to another does not have to be the answer to a crisis situation. There are other ways to handle things without someone’s blood being shed.
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June 29, 2011 at 1:35 pm
You right so voluminously it is hard to untangle your words.
Did you ever answer the question of is it OK to conduct a war that kills children collaterally, even though you claimed such a war was OK?
This is an example of many questions you just avoid. There are reams of others.
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June 29, 2011 at 1:53 pm
Yes I did answer it, I refer you to my previous comments. Exactly what “reams” of other questions have I failed to answer? Be specific please and I will do my best to answer them.
While you are doing that let me ask you a question. Do you think it is ok for unborn babies to be dismembered and their heads cut off and their brains sucked out? If so why?
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June 29, 2011 at 4:11 pm
What was your answer?
I don’t have time to search through thousands of over winded misinformation for your answer.
I don’t think you answered.
Let’s see. . .
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June 29, 2011 at 4:20 pm
I don’t have the time to repost my answer so look it up if it’s important to you.
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June 29, 2011 at 5:11 pm
Thought you would not answer. Figures.
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June 29, 2011 at 8:57 pm
I did answer all you have to do is scroooooool up the page and there ya go! I’m not going to do it for you.
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June 29, 2011 at 3:11 pm
“You right so voluminously it is hard to untangle your words.” Finally, a prodeather who speaks a truth! Means you have to write like a 6th grader, d, so Carrie can untangle your words easily.
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June 29, 2011 at 3:15 pm
In fairness I do write a lot but if they were really interested in truth rather than just attacking and accusations they would read and answer it. They just have no legitimate answers so that’s the only reply that they can come up with.
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June 29, 2011 at 4:15 pm
Are you really OK with John,
Who celebrates murderers being your cheerleader?
I personally would want nothing to do with him.
DeAnna, what do you want to say to John in this regard, as you letting a crazy like him support you only makes one read your items as if you are as nutty as he is.
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June 29, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Yep, that John, he’s an evil evil man for sending letters to people in prison while you argue with me about your “right” to kill an unborn human. I will tell you this. I have less problem with John for communicating with prisoners than I do with you arguing about your right to have a baby sliced to pieces.
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June 29, 2011 at 4:27 pm
Those people that John writes letter to killed one person or two perhaps and you complain that he “celebrates” them while you “celebrate” for mass murderers, a.k.a abortionists. As, I said I have no problem with John writing them letters. It’s his business.
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June 29, 2011 at 4:53 pm
Yeah, and just let me add something about the flag burning. Satan has this country in his clutches. I traveled to Pensacola to attend the flag burning because I wanted to protest that fact.
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June 29, 2011 at 5:13 pm
DeAnna,
you are a fringe Abortion belief system crazy if there ever was one!
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June 29, 2011 at 6:22 pm
whodahellDon?
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June 29, 2011 at 7:47 pm
DeAnna,
Is it OK for John to harass women?
At their own home?
and scare children in the neighborhood?
Children, whose parents do not even want John around, as they fear he might be a lunatic?
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June 29, 2011 at 9:00 pm
Fringe? Really? According to the latest gallop pole 61% of Americans think that abortion should be illegal in most cases. I am one of the 61%. ,What’s fringe about that?
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June 29, 2011 at 9:03 pm
Carrie, I have no earthly idea what you are talking about and even if I did I have absolutely no opinion about what John does or does not do in his free time. It’s none of my business. Why would I have an opinion about that?
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June 30, 2011 at 4:24 am
Carrie doesn’t like it, d, when I sit my ugly butt on her front lawn holding my sign, “The lady who lives here promotes pulling apart little kids slowly.”
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June 30, 2011 at 8:51 am
Ok I get it now. I honestly had no idea what she was talking about.
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June 30, 2011 at 10:22 am
DeAnna,
sounds like you are OK with John’s harassment of women.
That is something one should opine on.
You are on the fringe.
61% of Americans DO NOT want to take away the choice of the majority of birth control.
Again you are wrong, and pathetic for not having the integrity to say that harassing women, and scaring children at their own homes is wrong.
You care more about a single cell.
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June 30, 2011 at 10:54 am
Christie,
Form Gallup(dot)com , May 23, 2011 Article title” Americans Still Split Along “Pro-Choice,” “Pro-Life” Lines”
Majorities believe abortion is morally wrong, legal access to it should be restricted
“Americans are rather conservative in their stance on abortion, with 61% now preferring that abortion be legal in only a few circumstances or no circumstances.”
“By contrast, 37% want abortion legal in all or most circumstances.”
Over the past two decades, Americans have consistently leaned toward believing abortion should be legal in only a few or no circumstances, ”
As I said before, I have nothing to do or say about what John does or does not do. I have no opinion about that. It has nothing to do with me.
You said, “Again you are wrong, and pathetic for not having the integrity to say that harassing women, and scaring children at their own homes is wrong.”
I just learned what Carrie was talking about because John sort of explained it. Apparently (I think from what John just said) she works at an abortion clinic and apparently John goes to her house. Since I know nothing about that other than that one statement by John I cannot comment on it. But I will comment on the issue in general.
If what you are asking me is if I think people going to clinic workers houses and protesting there is ok. Then I would have to say it comes with the territory. If a person chooses a career that includes killing humans for a living then they have to be aware up front that there will be a certain segment of the society (61%) who will not approve of that killing, therefore a minority of those 61% will care enough to try and do something about it. With the laws of our land binding that minority so that they are extremely limited in what they can do to try and stop the killing they have resorted to picking up megaphones and pleading with the killers to stop. If they feel that they can make more progress by going to the killers house to beg them to stop then I can understand why they would do that. If that “scares” the killers children and makes the killer feel harassed then that is a choice the killer has made by choosing to kill for a living. Furthermore, just like the laws of the land protect the killer’s “right” to kill, the laws also protect the protesters “right” to protest. So, why does Ms. Killer want her cake and her candy too? She wants to be able to kill for a living but have everyone play nicey nice about it. Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. Anytime, innocent humans are killed there will be a moral outcry. It;s part of the territory. If Ms. Killer doesn’t like the moral outcry then she should consider changing careers.
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June 30, 2011 at 11:13 am
And I could cite polls that show a majority support abortion rights. Every poll can be manipulated. But if the polls were soooo clear that the American public does not support legal abortion, then why hasn’t Congress passed a constitutional amendment banning abortion? Because they know they would get crushed in the next election. Indeed, the Republicans control the key committee in the House and they have not moved on a constitutional amendment because they are being smart politically…
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June 30, 2011 at 12:46 pm
HUH?Now come on Pat, you aren’t seriously questioning the integrity of Gallup poll are you? Everyone knows that they are the standard and set the bar for non-biased polling.
As far as the constitutional amendment question goes. To be perfectly honest with you up until the last election a large part of the republican legislatures have been a bunch of suits that are Washington insiders that play the game and do the least amount possible to still get elected next go around. There have been some who have stepped up and tried to do some pro-life stuff but being the minority that actually gives a real crap little got done. However, things are changing. We have some folks coming up who, if they get elected, may just do that very thing. We will see.
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June 29, 2011 at 9:38 pm
Absolute balderdash, Deanna. (or, put another way, Straight up bullshit). Of course you have an opinion. You have an opinion about just about everything, don’t you? Writing that you have no opinion about what John does or does not do is irresponsible because you have been informed about his actions and, yet, you choose to ignore his heinous behavior toward women, his un-Christian, terroristic behavior. In fact, even the spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Allentown has gone on record, in a personal email,that John and his band of Saturday morning picketers are NOT approved by the Church for their behavior, but are acting on their own beliefs. I’m still waiting for John’s own church leader to respond to my email about his holy vigils in Allentown.
Like the pedophilia cases, the Church takes the stance that they are not responsible for violent picketers, not responsible for men and women who intentionally hurt women because they believe they know better than the women themselves (much like you, Deanna).
I’ll say this, to those who chose to believe what I’m writing: I get that you’re all about life at conception. But get this: Not everyone buys it. Deal with it. Learn to respect other points of view.
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June 29, 2011 at 10:29 pm
You don’t buy what, science? I suggest you read this because you’re ignorance of the facts is showing. It’s a sad state when people form “points of views” about a subject of this magnitude without the least amount of study of the subject. I respect your point of view, I’m just telling you that it’s butting heads with scientific fact.
“Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote.”
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]
“Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
“Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being.”
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]
“Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus.”
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]
“Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus.”
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]
“Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term ’embryo’ is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy.”
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]
“The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]
“Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism…. At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun…. The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life.”
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand’s Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]
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June 29, 2011 at 10:44 pm
Need more of science’s point of view? (The last one is very enlightening!)
“The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum…. But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down.”
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel — Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]
“Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression ‘fertilized ovum’ refers to the zygote.”
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]
“The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are…respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development.”
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]
“Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed…. The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity.”
[O’Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists “pre-embryo” among “discarded and replaced terms” in modern embryology, describing it as “ill-defined and inaccurate” (p. 12}]
“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.”
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]
“[A]nimal biologists use the term embryo to describe the single cell stage, the two-cell stage, and all subsequent stages up until a time when recognizable humanlike limbs and facial features begin to appear between six to eight weeks after fertilization….
“[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryo to describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo….
“I’ll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.
“The term pre-embryo is useful in the political arena — where decisions are made about whether to allow early embryo (now called pre-embryo) experimentation — as well as in the confines of a doctor’s office, where it can be used to allay moral concerns that might be expressed by IVF patients. ‘Don’t worry,’ a doctor might say, ‘it’s only pre-embryos that we’re manipulating or freezing. They won’t turn into real human embryos until after we’ve put them back into your body.'”
[Silver, Lee M. Remaking Eden: Cloning and Beyond in a Brave New World. New York: Avon Books, 1997, p. 39]
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June 30, 2011 at 10:26 am
Is that fertilized cell a baby Dwanna?
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June 30, 2011 at 12:19 pm
“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)… The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.”
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]
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June 30, 2011 at 1:15 pm
Dwanna – can you answer a question?
Is a fertilized cell a baby?
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June 30, 2011 at 8:04 pm
Christie, I answered that question in a long comment to Richard. I also answered it in the quote I posted here. I’m not sure what part of that you don’t understand. You can call it a baby, a cell, an egg, a hatpin. My belief, based on the scientific facts quoted above, and known by all, is that it’s LIFE begins at conception. It may not look like a baby, but it is ALIVE. But for the sake of argument, lets say that we can dismiss the early stages of pregnancy. Are you for abortion across the board? Even after it is plainly a baby that is kicking and sucking it’s thumb? Women kill those former cells all the time, for convenience sake, rarely for the life of the mother, or rape, or incest. Convenience.
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June 29, 2011 at 9:56 pm
You can call it what you like but I honestly couldn’t care less what John does.
And to be honest with you I have no idea what he does other than seeing his blog a few days ago that has letters to prisoners on it. What you asked me was this:
“is it OK for John to harass women?
At their own home?
and scare children in the neighborhood?
Children, whose parents do not even want John around, as they fear he might be a lunatic?”
I have no idea what you are talking about, nor do I care. If whomever is getting harassed doesn’t like it let them call the police. What has that to do with me?
As far as “I get that you’re all about life at conception. But get this: Not everyone buys it. Deal with it. Learn to respect other points of view.”
I will never respect the fact that babies are being killed. This is not about a point of view it is about life and death. A human being is being killed and that will always matter to me as it should to you.
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June 30, 2011 at 10:28 am
Kate,
these crazies will never get it.
They are just lunatics.
Thankfully they are on the fringes of beliefs and they will never get rid of birth control or abortion.
They waste their lives meaninglessly.
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June 30, 2011 at 11:02 am
Christie, just this year alone there have been sweeping pro-life bills passed in many states that are limiting abortion. As of TODAY! Thank You GOD! At least two, possibly all three of the only remaining abortion clinics in the entire state of Kansas are cloooosssssiiiiiing!!!!!
Planned Parenthood has been defunded so far this year by a whopping $60 million dollars. sba-list (dot) org
Great strides are being made. It’s only a matter of time. I am not, nor are other pro-lifers wasting our time meaningless, on the contrary, babies lives are being saved. If all I ever do is save one life, just one, then my life will have had much more meaning than someone who kills babies for a living or advocates for others to do so.
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June 30, 2011 at 11:09 am
Not too quick on the Kansas situation, Deanna. The clinics are, of course, challenging the action by the state… Meanwhile, earlier above, you asked me if I’ve seen pictures/descriptions of fetuses at certain stages in the pregnancy. I have and, in fact, I’ve seen the actual fetuses before (with ultrasound) and after the abortion. I’ve seen a 28 week abortion. My reaction was that’s is a sad situation but, like the doctors, I have to focus on that already alive/existing/in the world person, i.e., the mother. I compare it in some ways to euthanasia and, yes, I get it – the little baby has no say in the matter.
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June 30, 2011 at 11:57 am
Ok Pat I hear you, you see the reality of it, not hiding behind rhetoric and euphemisms, I appreciate that. And I see how you could look at it as a sort of euthanasia. But here is my question. In the quotes below you will see that even late term abortion providers have admitted that most late term abortions are for reasons other than the mothers health or fetal anomalies. I am sure also, that as long as you have been around that you know this personally anyway. So, that would conclude that the reason that these late abortions are being done are for correctable situations, i.e. financial, school, relationship, etc. Do you really think that these reasons are good enough for another person to die? How can a persons career, relationship, finances be enough to determine of another lives? do you not think that this is a slippery slope that could potentially lead to some rather horrendous outcomes, i.e. The disabled being killed, etc?
“When you’re a doctor who does these abortions and the leaders of your movement appear before Congress and go on network news and say these procedures are done in only the most tragic of circumstances, how do you think that makes you feel? You know they’re primarily done on healthy women and healthy fetuses, and it makes you feel like a dirty little abortionist with a dirty little secret. I think we should tell them the truth, let them vote and move on. In the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along. The abortion-rights folks know it, the anti-abortion folks know it, and so, probably, does everyone else.” (7)New York Times Feb. 26 1997
…..”We have some experience with late terminations; about 10,000 patients between 24 and 36 weeks and something like 800 fetal anomalies between 26 and 36 weeks in the past 5 years.”(8)(Note: Only 800 out of 10,000 were for fetal “anomalies” Speech to the “National Abortion Federation” April 2-4 New Orleans, LA
“Of women who had an abortion at 16 or more weeks’ gestation, 71% attributed their delay to not having realized they were pregnant or not having known soon enough the actual gestation of their pregnancy. Almost half were delayed because of trouble in arranging the abortion, usually because they needed time to raise money. One-third did not have an abortion earlier because they were afraid to tell their partner or their parents that they were pregnant.”(26)
Alan Guttmacher Institute
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June 30, 2011 at 12:11 am
Now that we have gone through all of the name calling and gone round the mountain of questions I have a question for anyone who is serious about this issue. I was told recently by an abortion advocate that women know full well that what they are aborting is a baby but that they just don’t care. As I was reading the Pregnancy Options Workbook yesterday I noticed several places where they referred to the “fetus” as a baby and there were some quotes where abortive mothers called it a baby. So, my question is this: How many of you have ever really looked and researched to see what the baby (fetus) is like at various stages? Have you looked at pre-natal pictures to see the reality of what you advocate for? Also, have you looked at the reality of what an aborted fetus looks like? Have you researched and seen what actually happens to the fetus? Here is a quote from one pro-choice person who did.
“I was thinking about getting an abortion. I was always pro-choice, but would never even think of doing it to my child. I am in a very difficult situation however, two kids and single and pregnant, so I was considering it. I thought to myself that I would be honest with myself and research FIRST what is actually done to the fetus. I wanted actual pictures of an aborted child. I knew honesty would guide me. I saw the pictures and was devastated. I wondered how someone could think of it as a glob of growing tissue? How could anyone think that way, especially for 2nd trimester abortions? THOSE are NOT abortions, they are plain and simple murders of unprotected babies. This has made my decision as I knew it would. I could NEVER do what all these women do. I am not here to judge them as only god can do that, but I will not be pro-choice anymore.”
The reason that I ask the question is because sometimes people just believe what they are told to believe. It happens all of the time. And without realizing it we buy into a belief system that is false based on what someone else says (this is how cults are formed) so it is imperative that we know exactly why we believe something. Just like the women in the above quote it would be very wise to be very honest with yourselves and know exactly what you are advocating for. As the woman said, “Honesty will guide you.” You may be surprised at what you learn.
If you are interested there are several sights on the internet with DOCUMENTED photos, quotes and other information. These are pro-life sites but the information that they give is documented from mostly neutral sources and the ones that are not neutral are easily distinguished in the bibliography.
cinicquotes (dot)com has pictures, stats, quotes from medical professionals and tons of other information.
abort73(dot)com has pictures and many other documented items of interest for anyone seeking the truth about this issue.
I know that it is a volatile issue, as has been proven in today’s comments, but it would be wise to know the truth of what you argue.
Some of you have been around for a long time, some of you not so long, but I would like to hear your comments after you look at the information. I would like to understand how and why you justify abortion after you know the stark reality of it. I am not trying to argue, frankly I am not interested in that. I am trying to understand your perspective but I can only understand it if it is coming from a place of honesty as opposed to rhetoric.
Pat, I would especially like to hear your take on it. Specifically have you seen the pictures of aborted fetuses in stages from 7 weeks up to birth? If so what is your justification for the killing of it? Certainly a womans bodily autonomy isn’t enough to justify that kind of brutality is it? At what point is your cutoff of gestation? Is a 30 week fetus death justifiable? Is a 24 week one justifiable? If so why? If not why not? Again, I’m not looking for an argument, just trying to understand where you are coming from.
I would like to hear honest opinions from EDUCATED( educated by looking at the reality of abortion in picture form) honest people, as many as are willing, thanks
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June 30, 2011 at 4:37 am
What amazes me is that Kate has the guts to show up for a match with these heavy hitters, deanna and Dwanna. I thought for sure by this time she’d have hied it back to her own blog where she can talk to herself. And even if she’s unaware of how poorly she fares in such matches, the fact that she shows up at all is gutsy.
But keep at it Kate bay bee — it’s your only chance.
And Chuckles, it’s your only chance too. Get back in here.
(Then we can deal with Pat, your heavyweight champion.)
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June 30, 2011 at 5:09 am
Know what I noticed, Pat? Back in the days responses kept coming in on your earlier posts. Now they all deal with the most recent. I kind of like this better even though it means that Dunkle.com has been ignored since Easter.
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June 30, 2011 at 7:24 am
Holy smoke! I almost missed it! Look at this:
“In fact, even the spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Allentown has gone on record, in a personal email,that John and his band of Saturday morning picketers are NOT approved by the Church for their behavior, but are acting on their own beliefs. I’m still waiting for John’s own church leader to respond to my email about his holy vigils in Allentown.”
Kate gets most of it wrong, as usual, but you can see why I consider her my most valuable opponent. The personal email was about me alone, nothing about the band. The writer, Maryann Dunn of the Catholic diocese of Allentown, PA, said nothing about Church (first time I’ve ever seen an anti-Catholic capitalize that word) approval. Maryann simply suggested to my great enemy around here, Kathy Kuhns of Pro-Live Berks, that perhaps she should distance herself and her group from me. This in response to numerous complaints Kuhns had sent to the diocese about those of my behaviors which she didn’t approve of. (Kathy’s a relatively recent convert and she hasn’t yet learned how the Church works.)
But the intriguing part here is Kate’s email to my “own church leader.” That could be the Pope, my bishop, or my pastor. Eighty percent sure I’ll hear nothing from him, so unless Kate tells me who that is herself, I’ll never know
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June 30, 2011 at 10:03 am
Deanna i have a doubt… You mention above that some pro lifers has given up a lucrative career to go in front of clinics and “pray”. Not being funny here but how will a person survive giving up a “lucrative career”… I found this hard to believe.
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June 30, 2011 at 10:26 am
There are people who raise money, sort of like a missionary would, from donors in order to be free to spend time praying for abortion to end, some spend time in front of the clinics praying, some I am sure do not. The International House of Prayer in Kansas City is an example of a group of people where some of the individuals involved are considered “prayer missionaries”. They leave their careers behind and raise money in order to pray full time for our nation, the world, social justice issues (as in human trafficking) and abortion, among other things. Most who do this sacrifice tremendously and live very modest lifestyles but they believe that prayer changes things so they are willing to make that sacrifice. This particular group has about 2000 people who pray as missionaries full time. They all raise their own funds to do so. Also, the prayer has been going on around the clock for the last 10 years 24/7 365 days per year. Some of the people who pray at the clinics do it basically the same way.
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June 30, 2011 at 10:35 am
This is a great blog.
It has shown our church group how poor the prolifers are in their beliefs and their ability to support them.
Their ignorance is revealed in magnitudes.
Our Church group helps children. We do a lot of good.
These pro life people do nothing.
I am saddened that they think they are Christians.
We want nothing to do with them.
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June 30, 2011 at 11:20 am
Wow Roman, you must have missed this post
““Most pro-life Christians go to churches that have programs, some of them massive para church organizations, that feed, clothe and house needy children. These pro-lifers financially support these programs through their churches. So, they do take care of the children. Programs such as Feed the Children, The 700 club, James Robinson, Warm Blankets International, Rainbow Kids, etc. (I could go on and on for pages listing them) are all Christian based, and they are doing EXACTLY what the author said that we do not do. Many, if not most adoption agencies are Christian based, and they are placing children from all over the world into loving adoptive homes. I have personally adopted 4 children, one special needs child with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, another special needs child with parental mental health issues, and one teen. I have supported Orphan relief efforts as well as inner city efforts. I am a certified foster parent. There are many many more who do much more than I do, some giving up lucrative careers to help these children. Furthermore, we start unwed mothers homes and crisis pregnancy centers that furnish baby furniture, car seats, maternity clothes, infant clothes and any other supplies needed in order to help with practical needs. We have food programs, housing programs and medical programs.”
What sort of church do yo go to anyway, The First Church of Deception? You have the nerve to come on here and attack people’s character who are trying to SAVE LIVES and hide behind the name of Christ to do it? Shame o n you. A good reading of the scriptures would do you well. You do know don’t you that you will have to stand before your maker some day and give an account for all of those people that you have led to astray by your false teachings. If ONE of those people kills their baby because of one word that you uttered you will have to answer to God for that baby’s blood. You should think about that. And while you are at it read the scriptures that say that the blood of the innocents cries out to God from the ground (Gen 4;10) and how he hates (detests) those that shed innocent blood (Proverbs 6:16-19) or how he formed the babies in the mothers womb and saw them while they were being formed and planned out all of their days ahead of time (Psalms 139). You are preaching a doctrine of devils and you need to stop! Everything that you have said goes against the scriptures that you call Holy. Stop calling Jesus Lord until you plan to obey him, take off your Christian hat and lay it down because you have no idea what that really means. As believers we are supposed to be a light to the world, we are supposed to love and be a voice for the voiceless.
“Open your mouth for the speechless,
In the cause of all who are appointed to die
Open your mouth, judge righteously,
And plead the cause of the poor and needy.”
Proverbs 31:8-9
Instead you have been a voice for the ones killing the voiceless and you have encourages those who kill the ones that are “appointed to die”.
How can you claim to be a believer and be so deranged and cold hearted. Again, shame on you. Go find Jesus!
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June 30, 2011 at 11:27 am
So, Deanna, if I have not “found” Jesus yet, when I die will I be going to hell?
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June 30, 2011 at 11:51 am
From what I just read of Deanna’s comment, she asked you how you can claim to be a Christian and support abortion, and provided scriptures to back up that Christians should not support it. She called you deranged and cold hearted, and said for you to go find Jesus. She never mentioned you were going to hell, and that’s the very thing that is so frustrating about this whole thread. My comments were addressed with other questions that had nothing to do with my comments. You all throw up smoke screens, and I take that to mean you are either afraid to address the comments, can’t refute the comments because they are factual, or are too ignorant to understand basic conversational skills. Which is it? I agree with Deanna: if a person believes in the Jesus Christ of the bible, the one who died for our sins, then they have to also believe in his WORD, which the bible tells us is him. “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word WAS God.” 1 John 1. In other words, the word (bible) became flesh and dwelt among us, and it was Jesus. Jesus Christ is the word of God manifested in fleshly form. I don’t have to argue the bible, it’s like arguing whether a math book states that 4 + 4 = 8. I don’t have to argue what the Koran says, or Reader’s Digest. It’s all there in black and white. It is plain and simple. Thou shalt not kill. If you are a Christian and you believe in Jesus Christ, then you are sinning if you shed innocent blood. Before you all go on another tangent, God does allow for war and capital punishment. It isn’t his perfect plan for us, as he loves us, but he knows we are sinners and would destroy each other without rules and consequences for our behavior. I leave you with this: if you are a true believer, which means a servant of Jesus, doing what he says, and laying down your life FOR HIM, have you ever asked him if he is okay with abortion, and have you found scripture to confirm what you think you heard from him? I double dog dare you to address my comments and only my comments, without name calling, dismissing them, or ignoring them and asking another question, Got the guts?
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June 30, 2011 at 12:46 pm
Christianity is a minority religion on Earth.
There are over 10,000 monotheistic religions.
The Christian Bible is very clear that non believers will be sent to eternal damnation.
Unfortunately a lot of the other religions say similar things, and are mutually exclusive. So the odds are against you.
Most people on Earth have never heard of the The Jesus Myth.
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June 30, 2011 at 12:57 pm
We were specifically speaking about Christian doctrines, what is your point and what does it have to do with what we are talking about?
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June 30, 2011 at 1:08 pm
Pat asked if he was going to Hell according to Christian Doctrine.
I replied the answer is that is exactly what Christian doctrine states.
Christian doctrine condemns Pat to Hell.
Perfectly relevant.
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June 30, 2011 at 1:40 pm
Yes, that does apply to the conversation. But your teases to try to get into a debate about the accuracy of different religions did not.
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July 3, 2011 at 6:24 pm
different denominations say different things
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July 3, 2011 at 6:22 pm
there is more to christianity than just the bible.
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June 30, 2011 at 1:09 pm
“So, Deanna, if I have not ‘found’ Jesus yet, when I die will I be going to hell?”
Our heavy hitters (mentally, not physically — I happen to know that both women are quite beautiful) addressed this but I’m going to throw a few jabs too.
The Church says only God knows who will be going to hell. But we all have our opinions, and here’s mine. You, Pat, will save your soul and experience the magnificence God created us all for.
For one thing you are responsible for the best abortion blog on the market. For another, you are reasonable, kind, fair, and even though intelligent is not something in itself that will get you there, you are that too. Thirdly, you brought us deanna and maybe Dwanna. That alone would insure your entry through the pearly gates.
Of course you are deadly wrong about abortion, but I attribute that to invincible ignorance.
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June 30, 2011 at 12:16 pm
Pat, that is a matter of doctrine, some say yes, some say no that here is no hell. What would concern me would be the spending forever without my creator part. For those of us who believe in eternity, that’s a big deal. God is not like people (religion mostly) have made Him out to be. He created us so that he could have fellowship with us. Religion has made it about rules and such (not that we aren’t supposed to live moral lives) but He meant it to be about a relationship with Him. Communicating with Him and loving Him are why we were created. But sin separates us from Him because He is holy. So in order for us to be restored to fellowship with Him the sin has to be removed. Jesus volunteered to come and die to remove that sin.(Isaiah 53 says he “bore our sins on His body, He took our sins upon himself) When we believe that, turn from our sins and follow Him the access to the Holy God is restored and part of that restoration is that we get to spend eternity with Him.
The flip side is, depending upon what interpretation of scripture one believes, you either die without being restored and simply go away, or as most believe you live for eternity without Him being tormented by the devil who you obeyed your whole life. Since your sin wasn’t taken from you then you must live with the punishment yourself. Some people get offended at God about that but the choice to love Him and accept his “way out” is just that a CHOICE. If there is a place called Hell and people end up there have they not made that choice by dissing their creator who provided a way out? Honestly, which one of these scenarios is the most accurate is a tough call to make an there is a lot of discussion about it in Christian circles but to me either one is so bad that I want no part of it. Also, why would a sane logical person want to be away from his God who created him? I am a very logical person, it just makes no sense to me. Scriptures say His love is perfect, why would I not want that?
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June 30, 2011 at 8:10 pm
Well, I see that I wasn’t taken up on my dare. The smokescreen bashing Christianity was a good move though. Touche’. It certainly got the focus off my dare. And John, I am heavy physically, just so you know. Not offended, just clarifying.
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July 1, 2011 at 4:46 am
To me you’re perfect.
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February 8, 2014 at 10:33 pm
Supplementing your income with paid suryevs is the easiest way I have found. I always do this leading up to Christmas!Companies do market research by paying you to complete suryevs and give your opinion. This is very valuable to them and some pay REALLY well considering it very quick and easy. Was this answer helpful?
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July 3, 2011 at 6:21 pm
that is for nobody other than god to determine.
the god of mercies knows your heart and knows who is and isn’t his.
catechism clearly states that salvation is possible for those who follow the commands of their conscience because that it is through this that the holy spirit works upon all people, and that this divine action is not limited within the boundaries of the church.
i cannot say for certain that i will go to heaven, as it is only through god’s mercy that this can happen.
so nobody has any business trying to condemn to hell you or anyone else.
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June 30, 2011 at 11:38 am
So tired of seeing people pretending to be one another
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June 30, 2011 at 1:24 pm
meaning?
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June 30, 2011 at 12:40 pm
Richard, Kent, John (not the crazy one), Henly, Monica, Pat, Carrie R., Garett, Latisha, Antol, and Kate,
I just reread these comments and didn’t realize how much the CPC stuff dominates. I don’t know much about them except that they upset the heck of you. But, come on. It’s 1941 and you’re hiding some Jews in the attic. The Nazis arrive, “Got any Jews hiding in your attic?”
You’d better be convincingly deceptive.
But now you don’t want CPC’s to to be deceptive to other killers? As I say, I don’t know much about them, I don’t know it they’re deceptive or not. But I hope to hell they are if the alternative means torturing someone to death.
This doesn’t compare to deanna’s beautiful response above, #7. You guys reread that one.
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June 30, 2011 at 12:48 pm
I’m so tired of Christians being so self righteous thinking that they have the exclusive path to righteousness.
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June 30, 2011 at 12:59 pm
Again Rich, your comment is out of step with what we are discussing. This is not a religious debate about religions. We were discussing abortion and I was asked a direct question about a Christian belief. This has nothing to do with your comment.
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June 30, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Christianity does relate to Abortion.
Christians have the most Abortions in America.
Christians are the people most against Abortion in America.
Christianity is a myth.
It is scary that our country is run by a bunch of crazy Christians.
The irony is amazing.
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June 30, 2011 at 1:20 pm
I didn’t say it didn’t relate. What I said was that you obviously wish to get into a debate about Christianity and it’s accuracy or lack thereof as opposed to other religions and what I said was that is not what we were discussing.
Your comment of “christians get the most abortions” needs to be documented or it is baseless.
Christianity being a myth or not is not what this discussion is about. We are not attacking each others religions. We are answering legitimate questions. If you would like to do that please join in.
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June 30, 2011 at 1:20 pm
I laughed so hard when one of these prolifers called the Pro Lifers Heavy Hitters!
They are mental midgets and know so little about so much.
Christians are among the stupidest people I have met through my travels.
The history of Christianity is a diabolical story of mass murder, infanticide, misogyny, torture, pedophilia and so on.
I am amazed anyone is not completely embarrassed to admit they are a Christian.
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June 30, 2011 at 1:23 pm
Mental Midgets? Dang, that’s a new one and quiet clever I might add. Congrats, you get the clever insult of the day award. FYI, we have moved on from the insult arena and are having legitimate conversations now. Would you like to join us?
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June 30, 2011 at 1:47 pm
Why don’t you speak to the mass murderous history of Christianity?
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June 30, 2011 at 2:19 pm
That isn’t my concern. I am concerned with human beings that are being killed today.
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July 1, 2011 at 4:52 am
I laughed so hard when one of these prolifers called Todd a Heavy Hitter!
He is a mental midget and knows so little about so much.
Todd and his friends are among the stupidest people I have met through my travels.
The history of Todd is a diabolical story of mass murder, infanticide, misogyny, torture, pedophilia and so on.
I am amazed anyone is not completely embarrassed to admit he is a friend of Todd.
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June 30, 2011 at 1:49 pm
Are you embarrassed to admit you are a Christian?
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June 30, 2011 at 2:21 pm
Who me? Obviously not, I just did loudly. Are you embarrassed that you advocate for the killing of innocent unborn babies?
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June 30, 2011 at 1:51 pm
The Dear Lord will send everyone who is not a true Christian to Hell for eternal damnation.
John, that includes Pat.
You should read your Bible!
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June 30, 2011 at 2:58 pm
Now Maryann I was trying to stay off of the topic of Christianity but I have to tell you that as one Christian to another supposed Christian you should check your grace meter. When a person dies without their sins being covered it is the saddest most tragic thing that there is and it is not something that we need to pray happens. Instead we need to have grace and mercy and pray that people repent. God does not send people to hell, never has, never will. They go there or at the very least to eternal separation from Him by their own choice by refusing to accept His free gift of eternal life through Jesus. God does not do that, they do. You need to ask God to show you what love and mercy and grace look like. He said that, For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16. This deal is not about hate but about LOVE. Also, Ezekiel 18:23 says, “”Do I take pleasure in the death of the wicked?” declares the Sovereign Lord.” Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?”
and…..2 Peter 3:9, “God does not want any to perish, but wants all to come to repentance”
and…..”This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).
So you seriously need to check your attitude because honestly it does more harm than good. You cannot win a person with hate.
Sorry guys for the bad attitude coming from someone who claims to be a “Christian”.
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July 3, 2011 at 10:00 pm
you should read the catechism
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June 30, 2011 at 1:59 pm
Todd,
Please know, on sites like this Blog, the craziest of the Christians hang around.
Some are a lot more crazy than others.
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June 30, 2011 at 2:24 pm
As I said clearly Annie, this conversation is about abortion. If you would like to join in scroll up to number 25 and answer that question. I presented it to everyone and so far Pat has been the only one to answer it. I am genuinely interested in the answers.
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June 30, 2011 at 2:52 pm
How sad. Yes, I support legalized abortion but I also am a good person, I do my community service, indeed, I’ve just started a foundation for poor children. I’ve raised two amazing kids, etc., etc. And, according to some of these comments, I”m going to hell. How harsh. Somehow, I just dont picture Jesus being that cruel.
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June 30, 2011 at 3:28 pm
Pat, again I am sorry for some of the mean posts coming from so called Christians. It shouldn’t be that way.
According to scripture “being good” is not what gets us to God. The book of Romans says that,”All have sinned and come short of God’s holy standard.” Therefore our good isn’t good enough. Jesus said in John 14:6 that, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
As I said earlier, it is His sacrifice, Him taking our sins on himself and receiving our punishment on himself that makes us acceptable to God. We do not have the ability in ourselves to be that good
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June 30, 2011 at 4:02 pm
P.S. Pat,
You said, “Yes I support legalized abortion” in an almost passing way, sort of like it was a non-issue. I couldn’t disagree more. You support legal abortion, you advocate for it, advertise for it, lobby for it, refer for it, and argue for it. You yourself admitted that it is like euthanasia. “I compare it in some ways to euthanasia and, yes, I get it – the little baby has no say in the matter.” You admit it is a baby. Do you not realize that for all of your work and your advocating and advertising that the deaths of those babies are on your hands? Do you realize that you will have to give account to God someday for that? Do you realize that He says that He “hates” those that shed innocent blood? That word hate there translated means an abomination. An abomination is the worst kind of sin. So, shedding innocent blood is one of the worst kinds of sins that there are. When you watched that 26 week baby being aborted did you see it’s blood flow? Was it innocent? Of course you did and of course it was. This is a serious deal. You have convinced yourself that it is justified because of the woman’s wishes but nowhere in scripture does it say that it is ok to shed innocent blood just because someone else wants you to.. On the contrary it says Thou shall not kill. Abortion is killing, everyone knows that. So by that one thing you have broken God’s holy standard and the only way, according to what Jesus said, for you to be restored to God is through repenting (stopping, turning away from) your sins and following Him. There is no other way if you believe what the bible says and you sound like you do. Also, the scripture says that we reap what we sow, if you sow death you will reap death, not eternal life unless you repent.
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July 1, 2011 at 4:44 am
Pat, are you beginning to regret the fact that you brought deanna to this blog? My guess is that the Lord Jesus Christ is going to take into account that you’ve heard what she’s told you.
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July 1, 2011 at 2:10 pm
I really think Jesus is watching us right now, for sure. Whatching all this suffering, children starving, wars that kill the innocent and wishing he could do something to help us, but wait, he is God he can just help us, why isnt’ he?
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July 1, 2011 at 4:06 pm
I know how you’d answer that question, Kalli. You’d say, he would help us if he were a woman.
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July 1, 2011 at 4:46 pm
Because he gave us the choice to choose right or wrong and we choose wrong most of the time, this is why there is suffering i.e. wars, aids, etc.If we chose His way, the moral way and put each other first none of that would be happening. But because we choose to do things our (humanity) way then we have to walk out the consequences. It is because humanity chose it. He helps people by using other people to be his hands and his feet (taking food to the starving children for example) but most of us don;t do that because we need that next Rolex, Mercedes, beach home, designer gown etc. There are enough resources and money on earth (and families for all of those starving children) where is we were doing what God told us to do there wouldn’t be suffering. But we refuse to do that also.
In the Bible he tells us plainly to look after the widows and orphans, to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, be a voice for the voiceless and rescue those appointed to die, and to not shed innocent blood. Most people do NONE of those things, and as far as abortion is concerned they think that they have the “right” to shed innocent blood. It’s a me me me society so the hurting ones are left in the dust to bleed alone. This is not God’s plan or His will. But again, he gives us the choice to do good or do bad and we choose bad.
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July 19, 2011 at 7:33 pm
Interesting article, specially because it shows a very different situation from that in my country. Here, abortion is illegal. And whatever “abortion clinic” there is may be well a shack where procedures are performed by anyone but a doctor and in unsanitary conditions. Well, there might be exceptions.
There is a project of law to be passed (I hope) where abortions are performed by the State Medical System for free by real doctors and using a chemical called misoprostol.
But if you go to the most important children/women health care hospital in the country, doctors may provide a prescription for it under the table (it is also prescribed for ulcers), or you might find someone selling it, sort of a black market.
However, the state medical system provides, for free, any other kind of contraception method: condoms, the pill, and even emergency contraception methods such as the morning after pill.
Still, there are many women who get abortions done in unsafe conditions, and this is my main argument in favor of abortion here in my country.
Provided that the woman cannot pay for it, abortions should be free, legal, performed by doctors and provided by the government, as well as providing all contraceptions methods, and above all, education!
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