Abortion
I normally do not read “Time” magazine, but I was recently sitting in a physician’s office waiting to talk to him about a silly bump on my leg when I noticed that he actually had THIS WEEK’S “Time” so I couldn’t resist. Thumbing through it, I saw a big, bold typed “35” and the caption underneath said: “Age, in weeks after conception, at which premature infants first distinguished pain from general sensations of touch.” For some reason, there was no reference to where they got that number.
Hmmmmm, I thought to myself, as I kept rubbing the bump on my leg. Could this be fodder for another award-winning blog?
As loyal readers know, in the past we’ve had innumerable heated discussions about when the fetus is formed, when it has a heartbeat, when it can tell the difference between Yo Yo Ma and The Ramones and, yes, when it feels pain. All of these arguments are designed to determine when/if the fetus becomes/is a “human being.” Around and around we go, with no end in sight. Hell, there are 50 years olds who still don’t know the difference between Yo Yo Ma and The Ramones, but that’s beside the point.
So, what does this statement in “Time” mean? Here’s my thought:
The way I interpret this is that the (and for purposes of consistency I will use the pro-choice word) fetus is floating around in there, not really knowing what is going on. Nuclear war could have erupted outside for all it knows and it is just chilling. Absent any action from the outside, it will keep growing and growing.
But let’s say the fetus is now 8 weeks old and, unbeknownst to him/her/it, its host has decided that she does not want that fetus to grow anymore, she has decided she cannot give birth. The woman makes an appointment with the local abortion clinic a few days hence. She goes to the clinic, the fetus not realizing what’s going on or what’s going to happen (and, please pro-lifers, if you really believe the fetus can actually suspect something, prove it). The woman goes through the preliminary steps, makes it to the surgical table and the doctor begins the process.
The vacuum apparatus is inserted into the woman and the fetus is still floating around, unaware of what is coming next. Now, let’s make the incredibly ridiculous assumption that the fetus at that point can “feel” something, that it is aware that something is touching it. So, here comes this plastic tubing, the open end facing the fetus. Then the machine is turned on.
According to “Time” magazine, the fetus hasn’t the foggiest idea of what is going on, whether this foreign item is a “friend” or “foe.” Indeed, if the fetus was 22 or more and the forceps or a needle made contact with it, the fetus still does not know that whatever is touching it is a good thing or a bad thing.
I am firmly pro-choice but have always said that procuring an abortion can be a sad event. One reason is that I’m sure many women do wonder what, if anything, the fetus feels during an abortion. If they read this little blurb in “Time,” I wonder if they would feel somewhat comforted?
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Abortion - Abortion Clinics, Abortion Pill, Abortion Information 
September 30, 2011 at 6:19 am
About “human” vs. “humanoid,” voice says:
“Biology experts disagree with you. Are you saying that you know more than them?.”[sic]
Biologists know to limit their use of the term “human” to biology, as in “human remains” and “human tissue.”
However, for the most part they will not presume to ascribe humanity on a strictly biological basis. Educated as they are, they know it takes more than tissue to produce a real human being; it takes a mind. Minds are built, not handed out.
As to a pregnant woman having the exclusive power to grant humanity to her fetus, voic says:
“No, It is a human by virtue of the fact that it is a human… What she thinks of it has nothing to do with it.”
If she does not think it is a human, it will not be the baby YOU think it is or should be. You have only to read the Abortion Store/Baby Store comparison to find what happens to babies whose mothers never regarded them as real humans. And it’s interesting that you fantasize about seizing from me a newborn whom I might threaten to kill, but you don’t actually DO that in real life,e it is so neede.. That’s one of the aspects of aborticentrism. Why do you behave like that?
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September 30, 2011 at 7:55 am
“If she does not think it is a human, it will not be the baby YOU think it
is . . .” And if I don’t think you’re human, Chuck? And don’t give me that “principal caretaker” stuff. At this point in your life, I am your principal caretaker.
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September 30, 2011 at 1:10 pm
Hey you kayhaitchers! Kate, Rog, AIs! You leaving Chuckles out here to absorb all the punishment? Not nice. And you letting him talk for y’all? I wouldn’t.
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February 8, 2014 at 8:58 pm
in my first post. I think it’s better to peenrvt unwanted pregnancies, even by methods that have annoying side effects, than to terminate them. (Obviously, death is more than annoying. But not many women actually DIE from taking the pill, and those who do are often doing things, like smoking, that they’ve been specifically told they shouldn’t do while taking it.)50.6% of those NZ women were using NO birth control. What is keeping them from doing so? Finances? Abusive relationships? Rape? Bad health care? Ignorance? Let’s find out and deal with those causes. Unwanted pregnancy, and therefore abortion, will be reduced. And that’s a GOOD thing.If we think that saying abortion is bad, but it should be legal and accessible because the alternatives are worse, but let’s do everything we can to make it rarer, if not actually rare is a mixed message that’s too complicated for people to accept, then we’re making the same kind of argument used against comprehensive sex education by people who think it’s too complicated to tell 14-year-olds we don’t think you should be having sex but IF you do here’s how to protect yourself . One of the strengths of the pro-choice movement is that it accepts the messiness and complexity of real life. We shouldn’t let extremists force us into simple, morally untenable positions. We should be doing it to them!!
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September 30, 2011 at 2:55 pm
40 days of lies began on Wednesday and continues here, in churches and outside clinics.
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September 30, 2011 at 4:00 pm
Do the pro-lifers participate in the 40 days thing? Remind me again what the 40 days is all about?
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September 30, 2011 at 5:19 pm
The folks who persuaded Abbey Johnson to quit Planned Parenthood stated it, I believe. Since we haven’t been able to get prolifers to overwhelm the mills all the time, they’re just trying for 40 Days. It reminds me of “Priests for Life.” It’s just very sad that we have to go about it this way.
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October 2, 2011 at 8:53 am
They spend 40 days praying for the abortion clinic workers, activists, escorts, and the mothers and families. Praying that they will see what they are doing. They do a lot of praying for the workers personally because they know that a lot are conflicted about what they do as many have shared after leaving. Sometimes this confusion and being conflicted goes on for years so they pray that they will understand their own hearts. Also, they pray that the mothers will change their minds. They have seen a lot of mind changes over the years as a result of the 40 days. Abbey Johnson came out as a result and I think there have been close to 500 women change their minds at the Clinic doors.
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September 30, 2011 at 3:59 pm
Hey, folks, I just noticed some of the comments about pasting and re-pasting, deleted comments, spam, etc.
I cannot believe that anyone is doing anything on purpose with the thought of trying to shut this whole blog down. Indeed, I will always be able to post my stuff. I totally do not get the technical behind the scenes stuff but I just think for the sake of continuing to carry on our conversations in a reasonable way, everyone on both sides should cool it with the cutting and pasting, the repeating of stuff, etc. It just makes the conversation a little boring to me and, heck, we all know that no one is changing their minds here so no matter how many citations to studies people put out there, it really doesn’t matter, does it?
Indeed, I like Dunkle’s approach. It is not heavily academic, it gets to the point (the wrong one :), it is even entertaining.
Anyway, thanks folks.
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October 1, 2011 at 9:59 am
Pat, of course VOICE was not trying to shut it down, since she was the only one called out. I know she wasn’t for the same reason you and everyone else here does, including Technical…her comments. She wasn’t blowing up the site, she was being sarcastic in some of her comments, and posting articles in others, JUST LIKE KATE DOES. Funny that she gets censured and Kate doesn’t, isn’t it? I copied and pasted what Bonzo said and Kate’s endorsement of it because no one on your “side” called her/Bonzo out on what they said. Pat, if you called this site anything other than a place for the fair exchange of ideas, I would let it go, but you claim to be fair minded, even open minded in some ways, and you seem to want pro-lifers here. Frankly, I feel like we bring life to the site, otherwise you guys would all be sitting around talking to yourselves. If you pushed this site as only pro-choice, or as the place to tear lifers apart, I would let it go, and consider us fair game. But for you to pretend to be one way and then ignore everything, no matter how inappropriate, distasteful and plain old rude, just because it’s your “side” is hypocritical. You never step in, that I’ve seen, and tell your guys they are being unreasonable, putting words into our mouths, etc. You know it happens. Then we get sarcastic or just repeat ourselves and you do call us out for that? I just feel that you should be honest about who you really are, what you really feel, and stop sitting on that fence about whether you really want us here or not, and whether you really are fair minded and want true discussions or not. When I first started I thought it ridiculous of John to mock and repeat back verbatim what others say, and change their names. Now I understand it totally. You get so tired of trying to have a real discussion, and being attacked, having your “credentials” demanded, your words twisted, etc. I’m sure lifers have done that too, and if so, they are also wrong. But that’s not what I see John, Voice, and the famous Deanna do. I don’t do it. CHOICERS are the reason the discussions degenerate into childish antics. Kate is the worst offender. She hates what lifers do outside the clinic, which they do because THEY hate what happens inside the clinic, so she comes here and behaves worse than they do. It’s ridiculous. If she has a right to say and do the things I’ve seen her do here, and I’ve heard she has done at the clinics, just because she disagrees with what lifers do, then by the same token lifers have the right to do what they do in front of the clinics for the same reason. Kate herself said, and I quote, “two wrongs don’t make ONE right.”
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October 1, 2011 at 10:47 am
Sorry, NY, but I gotta defend Pat on this one: “You never step in, that I’ve seen, and tell your guys they are being unreasonable, putting words into our mouths, etc. You know it happens.”
Pat has defended me on numerous occasions when the AIs attacked.
My favorite was his telling them to simply ask me one question, rather than a dozen at a time, and I would answer it. They stopped piling on the questions after he said that.
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October 2, 2011 at 6:20 pm
I wasn’t calling out Voice, Nunya. In post number three above I do not refer to anyone. I was making the comment to everyone….
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February 10, 2014 at 6:32 am
Your friend slhoud go to Planned Parenthood to get straight up info.WARNING: There are some CRISIS PREGNANCY CENTERS which are run by anti-choice groups out there. These people are very dangerous but appear to be legit centers. (They are funded by $60 million in taxpayer money for faith based’ groups).Semen is healthy, but comes’ in such small doses as to have little or no benefit. However the guy contributing the semen will enjoy it.
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October 1, 2011 at 7:06 pm
NunYa, your response is so typical of the prolife perspective. Whine is the constant thread of ALL protesters.
Let me give you a really recent example. Three female protesters filed a lawsuit for $200,000 in 2008 for violation of their constitutional and civil rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion (which they lost). Of course, none of them were citizens of Allentown PA. All three were foreigners, immigrants from other lands. These women were Kathy Kuhns, Joyce Mazalewski and Katie Teays. They claimed that there was a conspiracy to block their efforts with the use of tarps, human scrums and nonverbal vocal noises. What they wanted was compensatory damages for the deprivation of their rights and attendant mental suffering, emotional distress and other harm. But the reality is that they cared not for the deprivation of the rights of women clients and their attendant mental suffering, emotional distress and other harm. No, no. That would mean that they had compassion and love for these women. Instead, they demonstrated self-love. Their lawsuit was the consummate self-indulgence.
So when you, NunYa or Voice, or the three self-indulgent harpies carp, complain, kvetch, it’s a lost cause. You all care less about others. What you care about is YOU. What Joyce, Kathleen and Katie and others, ad nauseum, care about is your own selfishness, like you, NunYa. And yet you protest on a site that is not even of your own design.
Can you not see the utterly pathetic nature of your protestation? Or are you so delusional that you believe everyone should fall in line with your beliefs without a whimper or protest?
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October 1, 2011 at 9:34 pm
No Kate, I don’t. I feel I explained quite well my position. It wasn’t a whine, it was stating my reasons for reposting what you/Bonzo wrote. I also explained quite well, in English, so I don’t know what part of it you missed, that I KNOW this is Pats site, and that SINCE he INVITES pro-lifers here under the guise of wanting their perspective, he should speak up when anything BUT that happens. Did you even read my comment Kate? I was incensed then, and I’m incensed now, about your endorsement of Bonzo’s comment about crunchy skull crushing. I am incensed because I DO care about those women. I wouldn’t have worked in the industry if I didn’t. It makes me sick to my stomach that you joke about abortion, and laugh at such crass jokes that were made. How dare you say you care about those women. You are a liar and a hypocrite Kate. I DO know how hard it is to get an abortion for these women. I DO know how heart wrenching it is, and how it screws up their lives in many cases. That is why I DON’T stand on street corners yelling at them, and I never will. No matter how hard you try to pigeonhole me into your opinion of pro-lifers, I don’t fit, and more importantly, I DON’T CARE. I don’t know how you can ever escort those women into another clinic without massive guilt. What you need to do is what I taught my daughter growing up: be woman enough to admit when you are wrong. You and every choicer reading this blog should have called Bonzo out on what he said. You were wrong. You joked about it because you don’t really care about those women. If you did you couldn’t have. You just couldn’t. I have a hard time believing any of you do, or you would have been incensed. Are you Bonzo Kate? Those women trust you. SHAME ON YOU KATE. SHAME ON YOU BONZO.
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October 2, 2011 at 5:30 am
Making jokes about abortion when it’s not tied to any particular client is a form of gallows humor. In every healthcare speciality, there is gallows humor. And while it is clearly offensive to outsiders, it’s no reflection on their ability to do abortions, cardiovascular surgery, dermatological treatments, circumcisions on newborns or obstetrical care of prima gravidas. In other words, no health care arena is free from gallows humor.
There’s also the notion of pimping people to get a reaction, to provide a trap to walk right into and go ballistic with your self-righteous, angry comments. So for all that offer, thanks NunYa and to all the cowardly prolifers who hide behind pseudonyms. It just adds more to your profile. At least John Dunkle is willing to lay it out there in all his gradiosity.
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October 2, 2011 at 8:16 am
“grandiose” — “marked by breadth of scope . . .” And stop right there.
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October 2, 2011 at 8:45 am
There is a difference Kate between “other” healthcare fields and abortion.
The first and most important being that someone dies a grizzly death at the request of another. It’s not funny, never has been and never will be! The second being that the mother if most often emotionally distraught. That is not funny and never has been. To make light of that is cold and beyond cruel. To claim it is gallows humor is a cop out! It shows the cold hard facts that you and Bonzo are cold and hard and probably demonically possessed to be able to say something so disgusting and then turn around and laugh at it,not to mention the fact that you then try to excuse your way out of it. Kate, you are way more messed up than you realize. Your push to keep abortion legal and accessible has turned you into an animal.
The reason we pro-lifers respond the way that we do is because we can still feel compassion for the baby as well as the mother. Apparently all you feel is humor at the situation. As Nunya said, shame on you!
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October 2, 2011 at 9:58 am
Thanks for all the flattery. You’re so generous to share your thoughts.
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October 2, 2011 at 10:07 am
One more thing, Voice, it’s true that women are emotionally distraught. It’s also true that the majority of the protesters are mean-hearted, lying, retribution-seeking bullies. They care less about how much they invade a woman’s privacy, how they tell lies, how they screach “Mommy, Daddy, please don’t let them kill me, don’t let them tear my arms and legs off” and much more. John Dunkle and Joyce Mazalewski both yell at women as they enter the door to the clinic. John keeps on yelling, hoping they’ll hear him as they are in the hallway. That’s malice, intentional evil. So, take your shame and shove it.
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October 2, 2011 at 12:29 pm
“John keeps on yelling, hoping they’ll hear him as they are in the hallway.”
“Hoping” heck, knowing! I’ve posted here, someplace, how I found that out. Want me to tell you again?
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October 2, 2011 at 8:50 pm
Like I said, take your shame and shove it.
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October 3, 2011 at 7:41 am
OK, so here’s what happened: a while ago I was speaking before the door to life and death for my client, a youngster being carried in there. Anna was near-by trying to drown out my testimony. Our voices, as you can imagine, kept rising. Then the door slammed shut, the perp disappeared, and we stopped shouting. Silence. Then I heard the perp talking to someone who had been waiting for her inside. It was almost as if they were right next to us talking in “breast-cancer alley.” I listened for about ten seconds and then I heard the inside door close.
Oops, my bad! I read “and show it”! You actually wrote “and shove it.” Sorry for the carelessness. But, Kate, “dumping” and other references to activities associated with the anus appear all too often in you writings. It’s an “eeek” factor that I, and probably others, find offensive and distracting. Drop it.
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October 3, 2011 at 9:40 am
“It’s also true that the majority of the protesters are mean-hearted, lying, retribution-seeking bullies”
The majority?
How would you know such a thing? Have you interviewed ALL protesters from all cities around the USA?
“They scream, “Mommy, Daddy, please don’t let them kill me, don’t let them tear my arms and legs off” and much more.”
Isn’t that exactly what happens inside the clinic? Maybe it’s a last ditch effort to try and shock the woman into reality of what she is getting ready to do. I can’t say that I blame them.
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October 2, 2011 at 9:08 am
Kate Says:
“”Making jokes about abortion when it’s not tied to any particular client is a form of gallows humor.”
I’m sure every woman contemplating an abortion or that has had an abortion will vehemently disagree with you.
Kate said:” There’s also the notion of pimping people to get a reaction, to provide a trap to walk right into and go ballistic with your self-righteous, angry comments.”
You choicers have pointing the finger at others while ignoring your own actions down to a science. I think you know as well as the rest of us that isn’t isn’t just any other surgery, and never will be. Trust me, the women know.
Kate said: “There’s also the notion of pimping people to get a reaction, to provide a trap to walk right into and go ballistic with your self-righteous, angry comments.”
There’s also true, righteous indignation.
Kate said: “thanks NunYa and to all the cowardly prolifers who hide behind pseudonyms”
You mean we should post our true information like someone else did here, so you can then sick all your cronies on their families? No thanks Kate. Nice try though. I’m sure you’ll bring up that lifers have done that to you, so let me save you the trouble. If they did, they are wrong too. You are notorious for behaving the exact same way the lifers do, whose behavior you complain about so eloquently.
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October 2, 2011 at 10:00 am
Still cowardly, still whining. Keep up your good work.
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October 2, 2011 at 5:12 am
Just because the AIs are illiterate does not mean they’re dumb — they immediately see its stupidity when they ask a stupid question (and all questions leading up to the defense of baby killing are stupid). So, what do they do. The pile on the questions hoping that you, and they themselves, will miss the stupidity because it’s buried in the numbers. Even some the non-AIs like Chuckles and Kate do that on occasion.
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October 2, 2011 at 1:23 pm
The preceding argument once again shows the self-proclaimed “pro-lifer’s” need to call the fetus a “baby,” to make it greater than it is (potentially it will be a human being, actually it’s not there yet). Why do they do that?
And if it IS a baby, why do they regard it as less than the family dog? Why will they not let me have their dog when they would force me to have a baby?
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October 2, 2011 at 7:31 pm
how to stop a conversation
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October 2, 2011 at 9:05 pm
Kate, you obviously don’t have the ability to admit when you are wrong. You are exactly like a child who, when caught doing something wrong, points at another child and says, “He did it too!” we are talking about you. Not pro-lifers bringing lawsuits. Not about whether I give my name or not. Not about ANY of the other smokescreens you have thrown up to deflect the attention from what you did wrong to what someone else did. You escort these women into the clinics for one of the most gut wrenching things they will ever do. You joked about it. End of story. It doesn’t matter what the rest of the world does. That’s what you did.
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October 2, 2011 at 9:36 pm
And Chuck, whatever you think of lifers, surely you don’t think it’s okay to joke in such a horrible way about what happens, BY AN ESCORT!! that’s what is so upsetting to me. Those women trust her. I don’t like what was joked about concerning what happens to the babies, it was awful, but to know that these women would be horrified and feel so betrayed if they knew, makes me livid. It’s so two faced of you all to WHINE about what lifers do when choicers act so much worse! And apparently you are so unbalanced and biased that you can’t or won’t admit the truth if it bit you Chuck.
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October 8, 2011 at 9:01 am
NunYa, grunts, dogfaces, first responders, child protection workers, and epi nurses– when they’re busy and when they’re good– face so much trauma, pain, dislocation, shock, death and ugliness that they HAVE to develop a shell; otherwise they couldn’t function.
A unit of nurses that I know has to visit multi-resistant TB patients daily to observe them taking their medication. If this is not done, the patient is likely to be the epicenter of an horrifically unstoppable TB epidemic that will once again have 40 percent of the people over 40 in America dying of it, and 80% of the population infected.
If one of these patients who is supposed to take the meds doesn’t, the nurse him- or herself stands a risk of becoming infected. And one of those patients was palming her meds daily for a month, slipping them into his pocket while conversing with the nurse. All the nurses of course had to be tested, and you can imagine the fears that ran through their mind until the results came back.
It helps to deal with fear by having a sense of humor– and one epi unit i know has a “Black Heart Club” pin which it awards for the best black jokes. It helps them get by.
Your apparent lack of knowledge about the safety release value of black humor indicates that you’ve never worked in situations where you have confronted horrors. And considering the horrors that happen to millions of real children every day, I find that sort of surprising. I say “sort of,” because you are a self-proclaimed “pro-lifer,” so I shouldn’t be surprised that even though you have done good for needy families the only horror you are sensitive to is the one you create for yourself about abortion.
By the way, if you’ve read the aborticentrism site, you realize that fear and hatred of abortion is, like black humor, an insulating response, but not to the pain of others; rather, to the knowledge of one’s own death.
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February 9, 2014 at 2:21 am
Here’s the basic problem: the cvriex can dilate to 10 cm in diameter. A typical full term fetus has a head that is 11 cm at its widest diamter when it is in the optimal position. Obviously, that’s a problem. Usually, that problem is solved by the fetus’ head getting slightly squished (the conehead most newborns have). If the fetus even slightly in the wrong position or enlarged (ie hydrocephalus), the head is too large to get out. If nothing is done, both fetus and mother will eventually die. Usually after several days of intensely painful labor. (Malposition of the fetal head leads to labor pain that is more intense than typical labor.) If this occurs during a normal labor, a c-section is done with the attendant risks of major abdominal surgery. No big deal if you’re going to get a baby out of the deal, but if you’re not and third trimester abortions are never done on a healthy fetus with a healthy mother then it’s a major risk and a lot of suffering for less than nothing (less because the uterus is now prone to rupture and the chances of placenta previa go up, making subsequent pregnancies riskier not to mention the risk of ahdesions which may reduce fertility.) So basically the pro-llife movement is trying to ensure that more women become functionally infertile and suffer unnecessary pain. Doesn’t sound real feminist to me.
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August 15, 2013 at 3:49 am
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