About a year after we formed the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, its members decided it was time to hold their first conference. For years, many of them had been attending regular conferences hosted by the National Abortion Federation but some of the NCAP members were not members of NAF and the NAF meetings tended to focus on the medical side of the abortion issue. The folks who belonged to NCAP believed strongly in having a political voice on Capitol Hill. They argued that while NARAL was focusing on the general right to abortion, they needed someone to educate the Congress on the issues of direct importance to abortion doctors and clinics.
So, we booked the new Hilton Hotel in Alexandria, Virginia, put out the suggested agenda and kept our fingers crossed. Like anyone
who is putting on a party, we were very nervous that no one would show up. But, much to our surprise, about 70 clinic staff, owners and doctors came to Alexandria for the two day affair. Two of the attendees were Doctors George Tiller and Bart Slepian, who both would ultimately be murdered by pro-life activists.
To highlight how NCAP was already establishing a presence on Capitol Hill, we persuaded Virginia Congressman Jim Moran, a leader of the pro-choice movement, to kick off the event. Jim gave a rousing speech to a crowd of people, many of whom had never even met a real live Congressman. The next few hours were devoted to public relations and business issues. For example, we discussed how to conduct an “open house” for abortion clinics and where to get the best malpractice insurance.
The highlight of the meeting, however, was the adoption of NCAP’s first resolution. At that time, the clinics were under siege legislatively on both the national and state levels. It seemed that every day a bill was introduced requiring parental consent for minors, a 24 hour waiting period, the distribution of fetal development brochures, etc. At one point, however, an NCAP member suggested that those who were introducing these bills really had no idea how clinics opera
ted to begin with and how women approached the decision. So, the members decided to adopt a statement which made it very clear how clinics operated and how patients were treated. So, for example, they noted that 95% of minors already talked to their parent or parents, that women DID wait at least 24 hours from the time they decided to have an abortion and that the clinics were already subject to many federal and state regulations.
The resolution was adopted unanimously and we decided to have a press conference on Capitol Hill the next day. We quickly hired a public relations firm to get the word out. Besides the resolution, their pitch was that this would be a
chance for the press to see in person the owners, doctors and staff who actually worked in abortion clinics. This was a “coming out party” of sorts for our folks.
The next day, about 30 members of NCAP, all dressed up in their best Capitol Hill attire, took taxis to the House Cannon Office Building and walked into the ornate Post Office and Civil Service Committee Room, ready to conduct their press conference. But as we walked through the large mahogany doors, we entered an empty room. Not one member of the press showed up. We had given a press conference and no one came. I was totally ticked off but the NCAP members were just thrilled to be in the room and when a young media student from Georgetown University came walking in with his little camera, they agreed to stand behind the podium and make their statements.
To this day, I’ll never forget them standing there, facing that one camera, looking very proud that they had adopted this resolution and were finally showing their faces to the public. It was just one camera but for all they knew, they could have been talking to CNN.



October 27, 2011 at 2:53 pm
Ah, innnocence! those were the days…
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October 27, 2011 at 6:52 pm
I know, Charles, things did seem very innocent in the early 1990’s. Then the crap really started hitting the fan.
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October 27, 2011 at 4:52 pm
There are three things that struck me as particularly salient in this blog post. First, as all counselors know, pregnant women, whether teens or adults, wait well beyond 24 hours. Often they have waited several weeks before deciding to make an appointment, weeks to raise funds for an abortion, days of arranging transportation to a clinic and, after finalizing their decision to have an abortion, navigating people’s schedules to ensure they have a companion before and after the procedure. Out-of-touch legislators and antiabortion zealots don’t know (or likely, don’t care) about the facts that women face.
Second, your framing of your activities as a “Coming Out” party made me laugh, especially considering how homophobic most antiabortion activists are and how abortion is stigmatized. Good for you, for coming out now, years later, with your archival-based narratives.
And last, just because you only had one camera in the room didn’t stop you and your colleagues. You all were destined to be together, to be a voice for women’s reproductive rights. Hoorah!
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October 27, 2011 at 6:56 pm
Yes, Kate, that was when the providers really started to get their voice. And I think many of then will give credit to NCAP for pushing them in that direction. And that’s when a lot of them started having open houses where the public was brought into their clinics. Lots of folks came, expecting who knows what, and all they saw was a medical facility. It was so anti-climatic.
But that one kid was really funny. He had the whole room to himself, I”m not even sure he knew who these people were! But I just remember as each speaker took the podium, talking to an empty audience, the others behind her stood very straight and looked straight into that one silly camera. I was pissed, but they celebrated afterwards!
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November 1, 2011 at 7:53 pm
To”ensure they have a companion before and after” implies that the person feels guilty for doing it. Perhaps they should take that as a hint.
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October 27, 2011 at 7:05 pm
that PR firm sure didn’t do their job, did they?
>>>Out-of-touch legislators and antiabortion zealots don’t know (or likely, don’t care) about the facts that women face.<<<
the irony of that is that listening to these women and understanding what they are facing is how we can help them to eliminate the situations that make many of them seek abortions to begin with.
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October 28, 2011 at 5:00 am
I read about pro lifers that are also going to try and get rid of birth control.
Then I actually read some real pro lifers saying stuff like that in this blog!
How can we ever help people, if those ProLifers try and take away birth control?
It’s gonna be a real mess if they do that. They think the unwanted pregnancy rate is high now? Just wait!
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October 28, 2011 at 7:35 am
“Then I actually read some real pro lifers saying stuff like that in this blog!” I realize I’m important, V, but don’t multiply me.
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October 28, 2011 at 8:44 am
Sorry,
Who are you and why are you important?
I have no idea what you are writing about.
Vince
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October 28, 2011 at 1:31 pm
I think I’m the only one around her who wants to get rid of mutual masturbation.
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October 29, 2011 at 8:44 am
By your answer, you clearly misrepresented the fact that you are important.
Why would you do that?
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October 29, 2011 at 9:33 am
because it results in the torturing to death of young people
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October 29, 2011 at 3:54 pm
You misrepresented yourself because it results in the torturing to death of young people?
I think you probably only have one working neuron left and it is infected with a spirochete.
You have no idea what you are writing.
Are you a drunk? On drugs? What makes you so incoherent?
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October 30, 2011 at 6:57 am
Sandy, as an aborticentric he is compelled to engage in an allegorical battle against his own death. Since unlike most people he is unable to deal with the knowledge and implications of his own death, he struggles to convince himself he can transcend it.
The reasoning for the aborticentric goes like this: If he can get other people to acknowledge he is a hero, then he will live on in memory, another Caesar or Jesus. Therefore, he must struggle heroically.
While real heroes become so by paying the price society specifies, he can’t risk that sort of effort: He doesn’t want to die in a burning building rescuing an orphan child. So instead he constructs his own struggle, one which involves little effort, training, intelligence or disruption of his life.
He picks a subject he can never be responsible for (no rescuing a druggie or illegal immigrant), one which will not contradict his fantasy (no teenagers!) and one whose future behavior cannot be laid at his doorstep. The allegorical battle is designed for him to win: the fetus is him, abortion is Death, and he is God. If he can “rescue” a “pre-born child” then God can “rescue” him.
All the imagery he uses is invented for the purpose. Pay no mind to its relevance or truth; it is simply another tool for his use.
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October 31, 2011 at 3:24 pm
S! “spirochete”! Now I’ll forgive you everything!
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October 31, 2011 at 9:02 pm
i concur.! send me back to school. hah.
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October 28, 2011 at 10:33 am
Vince, he tells the world that a fetus is a girl and implies it is a fully formed human, that the doctor who performs the abortion is torturing her and is a murderer and that anyone who believes a woman has the right to determine how many children she will bear is an accomplice to murder.
This fantasy to which he clings makes him important.
He, on the other hand, does not care for real children as much as he cares about betal life, and he thinks that a dog abandoned in a parking lot will be tenderly cared for by somebody else. As I imply, a fantasist.
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October 28, 2011 at 1:04 pm
So he was lying when he said he was someone important?
Is that true? He belevies that fetus’s are always the female gender?
He must be a ProLifer suffering from delusional grandiosity.
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October 28, 2011 at 1:32 pm
V, I never lie unless I really have to.
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October 29, 2011 at 8:46 am
What kind of blog is this that does not moderate plain stupid remarks, like the ones to me from this blog troll Dunkle?
He diminishes your blog, whoever is running this thing.
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October 29, 2011 at 9:37 am
“Vince, he tells the world that a fetus is a girl and implies it is a fully formed human,”
Chuck’s wrong, V. I don’t say a fetus is a fully formed human; I just say she is more fully formed than Chuck himself and a lot more formed than you.
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November 1, 2011 at 8:32 am
Hey, folks, I’m back! And, yeah, when did john get sooo influential?
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November 1, 2011 at 9:38 am
That happened as soon as you and Karen let me say anything I want (almost). Not only that, but then you listened. Never had that happen before — pro or anti life! At first I was sure you were doing that expecting that I’d say something incriminating, but now I’m not so sure.
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November 1, 2011 at 11:18 am
I mean Elana, not Karen.
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November 1, 2011 at 11:19 am
Elena, dope
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October 30, 2011 at 2:44 pm
hi vince.
i am a religious zealot that wants the entire world to live according to my beliefs.
there’s just one thing stopping me from getting what i want…..
REALITY!
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October 31, 2011 at 4:05 am
Hi Rogelio,
If I understand your post to be sincere, then it appears you may be the only pro lifer that one can have a sensible conversation with. What do you think about all these GOP candidates claiming they would
1) Not allow abortion, even to save the life of the mother
And
2) Getting rid of Birth control that is an abortifacient?
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October 31, 2011 at 9:41 am
actually vince, i don’t give a penny about american politics.
maybe if it were my country and i could have some impact, i would feel differently.
i don’t think that laws have much impact on the abortion rate.
women in the US certainly had abortions before roe v wade, didn’t they?
i find it a terrible paradox that politicos who claim to be pro-life are usually the ones who are so quick to cut funding for social services that would allow low income families to properly care for their children.
if lifers want to save babies, we would do well to embrace those facing unwanted pregnancies rather than condemning them.
we should try and help them to change life situations that make them seek abortions.
if we worked to save the woman, quite frequently the baby would be saved by default.
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October 31, 2011 at 10:22 am
Thank you.
It is reassuring to read from a ProLifer that actually cares about living children.
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October 31, 2011 at 3:32 pm
“women in the US certainly had abortions before roe v wade, didn’t they?” — Rog’s right here, V.
Before Roe seven thousand were tortured to death annually that way; after Roe a million and a half are.
Compare it to sexually molesting children younger than five. Now about seven thousand are molested annually; make it legal, the perverts would come out of the woodwork, and a million and a half would be.
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November 1, 2011 at 2:39 pm
Exactly Vince…there are not many “level headed” lifers but “Roggie” is one…I have forged a friendly banter back & forth with him over the years…because he didn’t throw “common sense out with the bath water”!!!
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November 1, 2011 at 5:31 pm
Yo, LDM, the word is “baby.”
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October 29, 2011 at 4:59 am
Rogelio,
The key is listening and doing so with an open mind and welcoming heart. What I see outside abortion clinics is open mouths and closed minds and hearts.
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October 29, 2011 at 9:39 am
You don’t see anything outside abortion “clinics,” Kate, because they don’t exist. What you’re looking at are abortion mills.,
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October 30, 2011 at 1:47 pm
>>>The key is listening and doing so with an open mind and welcoming heart.<<<
yes, of course. thank you for clarifying that. sometimes it seems that you can read my mind. jajajajaja
if a lifer truly wants to help, we need to know what the underlying problem is that makes a woman or couple seek an abortion.
we can't do that if we don't know what that problem or problems ( so often there are multiple reasons ) are.
i also think that we should be offering help regardless of whether or not a woman chooses to carry her baby to term.
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October 31, 2011 at 3:34 pm
chow, chow, chow, chow
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October 28, 2011 at 7:42 am
Pat, please tell me you have something else in your life to be proud of other than sticking up for the rights of mothers to kill their unborn children and no one from the press giving a crap. This was a very sad story by all accounts.
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October 28, 2011 at 10:07 am
I have to agree. The more I read this posts the more disturbed I am.
Where are we going to end up. Thinking that it is ok to kill a baby.
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October 28, 2011 at 10:08 am
I found this video online. I don’t think the song is any good but was surprised to learn that it was someone’s story.
http://www.abortionsarewrong.com/2010/11/nick-cannon-can-i-live-anti-abortion-music-video/
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October 30, 2011 at 7:21 am
Karine – I answered your question, yet you did not answer mine that was posed first.
Tell me before I waste my time if you are like the troll JD, who states nothing and cannot be conversed with.
Vince
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November 1, 2011 at 10:09 am
Another propaganda video. Who cares?
It’s like the CPC Mills.
Constant evil deceit.
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October 28, 2011 at 1:07 pm
I’m having trouble finding anyone who says it is OK to kill a baby.
Can you point it out?
I did find in the Bible nearly 1,000 references where God thinks it is OK to kill a baby.
Isn’t that strange?
Why does God in the Christian bible Kill so many babies?
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October 28, 2011 at 1:34 pm
Oh, V, we’ve been through all this. Go back and read, or go away.
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October 28, 2011 at 1:59 pm
Can you point to me where in the bible I can find this remarks?
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October 28, 2011 at 9:01 pm
#5 — Thou Shalt Not Kill.
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October 29, 2011 at 8:52 am
Christians have killed, murdered , and tortured more people (including children) than the worst dictators, societies, ethnicities, and religions in the history of civilization. Yet their main tenet is “Though shall not Kill?”
Gosh, just Christians in the state of Texas, by modern capital punishment kill more people every year by state supported execution than most the present day world’s countries.
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October 31, 2011 at 9:16 pm
Sir, More people have died in the History of Man for The so called “God”‘s of the world, Especially, the christian faith, so with that you can site your insubordinations all you want enjoy your hypocrisies of worlds apart.
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November 1, 2011 at 4:36 am
Andy, I’m trying to rewrite this so I can respond. So far I’ve failed. Give me a month.
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November 1, 2011 at 10:34 am
The Catholics are the worst of the Christian Cults when it comes to murder.
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November 2, 2011 at 5:59 pm
OK, OK, Pat, somebody is editing me (# 6). Happens two more times, I’m outta here.,
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November 3, 2011 at 6:42 am
John: I am not editing anything!!!! I wouldn’t know how to do it if I wanted to!
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November 3, 2011 at 1:13 pm
OK, next time it happens, I’ll show you.
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October 31, 2011 at 4:08 am
Karine,
What is your response to my answer to your question?
What is your response to my question that you never answered?
Is that how a Pro Lifer behaves? Very poorly.
By default the answer is yes.
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November 1, 2011 at 7:21 am
Karine,
It appears you initiated a furthering of the Bible thread by asking your question.
It is very presumptuous of you to make assumptions about Vince, when he did not make them of you. I agree with Vince.
Instead of avoiding questions, why not just write down the facts?
You do respond in a disingenuous manner. I find that I will ignore your comments unless you intelligently answer the questions.
Where did someone in this post say it was OK to kill a baby? Please don’t make up another nonsensical answer as it only diminishes you and your beliefs.
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November 1, 2011 at 10:10 am
Karine ** Looks like he did.
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October 29, 2011 at 8:48 am
Karine,
Are you Joking?
What about the Egyptian first borns. They were innocent babies and children weren’t they?
Dunkle your remarks are so ridiculous they don’t even deserve notice anymore.
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October 29, 2011 at 9:43 am
You seem hung up on them, V.
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October 29, 2011 at 11:17 am
Vincent, I see where Mr. Dunkle has been yanking your chain. If you want to understand how he manipulates you, you should look into what motivates him. Google “aborticentrism” and find out why he can’t meet you on any terms but his own. If you have any questions about what you read, ask.
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October 29, 2011 at 3:59 pm
He does not manipulate at all.
At first I had no idea what lengths a person would go, like JD, to just be stupid and waste people’s time.
He is again delusional if he thinks he is manipulating anyone.
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October 30, 2011 at 6:39 am
Vince, if you study his themes and his messages, you will note a similarity to the communications skills of a four-year-old who is testing his ability to get attention. Having been told to leave the begonia alone, the toddler will pull off a leaf while paying attention to his mother. If she doesn’t respond, he escalates by breaking a stem. When she does respond and stops him, he turns his attention to the litter box. Mr. Dunkle does the same with you. That’s how he manipulates.
Any time he can get someone to provide him an excuse to post, he’s like the manipulative four-year-old. I’ve dealt with a lot of kids like him. When he baits you, the wrong reaction is to respond. Think of him as a four-year-old imploring a group of much older kids, ‘Kin I play? Huh? Huh? Kin I play?”
The so-called “pro-life” movement is a fraud, and he is the best it has to offer.
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October 31, 2011 at 3:37 pm
I’m glad this stuff is addressed to you, V.
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October 31, 2011 at 4:14 pm
“He does not manipulate at all.”- I kind of thought I was manipulating you, V. But I wasn’t sure till Chuck confirmed it. You’re easy.
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October 29, 2011 at 5:12 am
I find your rhetoric very sad. Your phrase “sticking up for the rights of mothers to kill” is highly problematic on several levels. To begin, the idea that the majority of the population views human rights and constitutional rights as a worthy endeavor to uphold cannot nor should not be reduced to “sticking up” like it was some school yard rumble. Second, the majority of the population views human rights and constitutional rights of women as equal to the rights of men. Framing your emotional drek as “rights of mothers” objectifies the female as an incubator and ignores her full humanity. And last, the “unborn children” phrase is more of the same, codswallop. All very sad to read that you are unable to see women more holistically.
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October 29, 2011 at 8:16 pm
What I find sad (and highly problematic) for you, Kate, is that you are unable to see the pre-born child in the womb as part of humanity. You see the man and the woman but that little baby innocently growing inside it’s mother that they created just escapes your logic and your heartstrings. Yes, very sad indeed – you totally ignore the humanity of the child and are unaffected by it being dismembered and carted away as medical waste. What makes you so cold hearted and downright mean and ugly when it comes to the pre-born Kate?
Furthermore, when the woman has a child growing in her womb she is indeed, in the eyes of the Lord and those of us with a properly formed conscience, a mother — not merely an incubator as your unemotional drek purports — but a woman gifted with the ability to co-work with God in his gift of creation. She is – and always will be a mother – the question is will she become the mother of a dead child or a live one.
Woe to those men and women who callously throw this gift of life away, those who support the killing of the pre-born by their actions or inactions, those who work in the killing mills, and those that blog that ‘coming out as a pro-choice advocate’ is one of their proudest moments. You are all so sad and lost to believe that killing the unborn is a worthy endeavor. Truly misguided. Do you people not fear God at all?? To meet God on judgment day and be as immersed in the baby killing business as all of you are is a frightening thought for me and should be for the rest of you as well. God have mercy on you and may you all be converted before you meet the Lord.
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October 30, 2011 at 6:44 am
Okay, Prayingforyouproabortstoconvert, so tell us how your seeing “the pre-born child as part of humanity” translates into care for real children. If you’re a typical self-proclaimed “pro-lifer” you don’t adopt more children than the typical “pro-choicers” do.
It’s all nice and good to have a romantic view of the fetus, but Ted Bundy left behind from three to five dozen families who would prefer that you raise to adulthood every “pre-born child” you want “rescued.”
I therefore ask you to sign the RESPONSIBLE Right to Life pledge (I’ve signed!), stating that you will indeed do so. If you won’t sign, why won’t you?
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October 30, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Typical broken record response about adopting. Man can’t you guys get a new schtick?? Don’t know what you’re talking about re: the responsible right to life pledge.
How about this for a change of pace – THE PARENTS OF THEIR OWN UNBORN BABIES actually take a little bit of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY ON THEIR OWN and raise THEIR children or make the other LOVING CHOICE and GIVE THEM to families that would be thrilled to do it for them. Why must WE (because we are pro-life) fulfill YOUR OBLIGATIONS to YOUR FAMILIES??? I raised MY family and would never have expected anyone to take over for me because I wasn’t ready, didn’t have enough money, wanted to go to school, or whatever the heck else excuse you come up with ad nauseum with which to justify killing your unborn CHILDREN.
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October 30, 2011 at 3:14 pm
actually, i think that choicers make a great point about lifers adopting. i don’t necessarily agree with chuckles’ numbers, but the point is valid.
and that is just one of the many things that we can do to help these women and couples.
we can’t just chant that abortion is bad and offer no lasting solutions if we are to be effective in our goal.
if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
someone facing an unwanted pregnancy deserves love and compassion, not condemnation.
furthermore, if we wish to invoke the name of the lord, we are obligated to embrace those who face unwanted pregnancies, not leave them to deal with it alone.
jesus’ message was not just one of salvation, it was also one of social justice.
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October 31, 2011 at 4:15 am
Incredible! Rogelio appears to actually be a real, articulate, and intelligent ProLifer.
Refreshing!
Thanks Rogelio. If you weren’t here I would have dropped this blog, as the other Pro Lifers make absolutely no sense, and have no credibility.
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October 31, 2011 at 3:58 pm
Another killers’ helper captures Rog’s heart.
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November 1, 2011 at 3:03 pm
…and with that challenge, prayforabortstoconvert disappears back into his dismal fen…..
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October 31, 2011 at 6:44 am
Hey, pfatc, what does it say about your care for human life if you don’t care what happens to children? There’s the quick death for a fetus, or there’s the long, tortured death of the next Ted Bundy, who took between 35 and 61 women with him. If you don’t care enough that a child be raised not to be the next Ted Bundy, your alleged care for your “unborns” is dissonant to say the least. It’s clear from the tone of your post that you are not into caring, but into punishment. It’s sad that you feel a child should be the punishment of parents who had sex and that it go through life without one iota of concern from you.
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October 30, 2011 at 7:26 am
Person with long name.
Are you really implying a single cell – you regard as being a baby?
A baby has a very well defined characteristic. And if you want to make it ambiguous please explain how you stretch “baby” down to the single cell.
Vince
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October 31, 2011 at 4:03 pm
“please explain how you stretch “baby” down to the single cell.” — that’s the only logical place to start, isn’t it V ? I mean why should you start at a thousand just so you can help kill younger people? Why should you start at a million just so you can help kill those a little older?
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October 30, 2011 at 2:02 pm
Oh, here we go again the “properly formed conscience” rhetoric.
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October 30, 2011 at 2:21 pm
Yes, that’s right – a PROPERLY FORMED CONSCIENCE!! You know the thing you lack!!
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October 30, 2011 at 3:27 pm
says the person that refuses to help those facing unplanned pregnancies or their children.
for someone who invokes the lord, you sure don’t show his love.
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October 31, 2011 at 4:17 am
Person with long name.
You believe a single cell has a properly formed conscience ?
Am I reading your statement accurately? Or are you attempting bad satire or humor of some kind?
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November 1, 2011 at 10:15 am
I agree with Rogelio. PFYPATC, how could you presume to know more than God himself?
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November 5, 2011 at 10:06 am
Praying does not appear to like answering questions.
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October 30, 2011 at 3:25 pm
>>>What makes you so cold hearted and downright mean and ugly when it comes to the pre-born Kate?<<<
i know kate away from this blog and she has always encouraged me in my efforts to help women and their children.
she is always supportive and takes a great deal of interest not just in the woman, but also in the baby, both before and after he is born.
i suggest that if you find her coldhearted, mean and ugly, that you are projecting.
your post refusing to help those facing unplanned pregnancies sure seems to indicate that.
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November 1, 2011 at 4:44 am
Rog never met a killers’ helper he didn’t fall for.
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November 1, 2011 at 8:41 am
What you fail to realize, Pray for us, is that women are sensitive to the “humanity” of the fetus/baby. That is why abortion can be sad. Women are not stupid. When the find out they are pregnant, they know there’s something alive in them. DUH……And they know that if they do nothing, it will grow and they will have a baby….DUH… Women are not idiots, my friend…
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November 1, 2011 at 8:52 am
I agree with you here, Pat. But you must say the same thing about all killers and their helpers. There were Germans who carried out their orders but who hated what they were doing. And as for as our POW’s, they had ten times the chance to survive in Germany as in Japan.
That still doesn’t make the German Holocaust right, though, does it. And because some of our killers’ helpers are desperate, ignorant, and/or compassionate, that doesn’t make our Holocaust right either, does it.
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November 1, 2011 at 8:37 am
Hi, Anonymous. Sorry for the delay in responding. Look I wish there were no need for abortion because abortion is a sad thing and it can be hard on the woman involved and others. But the clinics are responding to women who desire to have the abortion in a safe, legal environment and I have to support that.
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October 31, 2011 at 9:30 am
@ Vince
I am sorry I am totally lost, what was the question you asked. I have a life and I am not here 24×7. Ask again and I will be happy to answer.
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October 31, 2011 at 10:32 am
Karine,
1) I’m having trouble finding anyone who says it is OK to kill a baby. Please point that out – then you did not. You ignored the question and asked your own which was answered.
2) Why did God order the death of all the innocent Egyptian newborns? And anyone that has read the Bible knows it is a poor reflection on the person that denies that God of the Christian bible orders murder, slaughter, and infanticide many, many times. No Christian scholar would disagree with this, so why do you Karine?
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October 31, 2011 at 11:07 am
1) Vince if you agree with abortions you are saying that it is ok to kill a baby, plain and simple.
2) Please don’t even give me that, by your tone I can tell that you don’t believe in god so you know that was no god ordering the death of new borns, that was an excuse because someone felt threatened.
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October 31, 2011 at 12:46 pm
Karine:
1) So you said people are saying it is OK to kill a baby, but you cannot find one quote to support your claim?
You misrepresent fact.
Don’t make facts up.
It’s boring to have discourse with someone who is so incredulous.
2) From Exodus
At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock.
And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians. And there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a house where someone was not dead.
*****
So, clearly the Bible in this instance and many other places God advocates and orders the killing of babies.
The Christian God is the most massive murderer of babies and children.
Stick to the facts.
You avoid and misrepresent them.
If you don’t stick to fact it is a waste of time to converse with you.
3) Do you not believe in the Bible?
Vince
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October 31, 2011 at 1:12 pm
STOP mentioning the Bible, I don’t care about it do you? You and I both know that that is an invention, excuse to accomplish some ones agenda.
I never told you I was a Christian ever or that I follow the first testament. I could care less about that and still think that abortion is killing.
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October 31, 2011 at 6:08 pm
Karine,
The ProLife movement is highly over represented by Christians. I don’t believe I said you were one. Although you do make presumptions of which you have no idea about mine.
And, you still have not revealed where someone said it was OK to kill babies, even though you represented that as a fact, and continue to evade answering the question.
Why is it so hard to say, “oops, I was wrong?”
It’s no big deal.
The most genuine people people can do it. The fanatics are the ones that are incapable. I see the ProLife fanatics all over the place.
Do you want to get rid of birth control like many of your ProLife compatriots?
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November 1, 2011 at 10:19 am
Vince give up on Karine.
She will never answer your question.
Her Ego is more important, and being “Right,” even when Karine is not, is also more important then getting the facts correct.
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November 1, 2011 at 11:23 am
Talking about people coming out of the woodwork, Todd! Where you been!
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November 2, 2011 at 4:43 am
V is right: “The ProLife movement is highly over represented by Christians” (read Catholics). And the ProDeath movement is highly represented by anti-Catholics.
Then why do I think it’s the Catholics who are more responsible for this holocaust. Ask me and I’ll tell you.
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October 31, 2011 at 12:57 pm
Karine, the Biblical quote which justifies abortion is Ecclesiastes IV, i-iii.
Funny, but when I point it out to self-proclaimed “pro-lifers” they just dismiss it as the scribblings of some minor sage rather than the word of the Lord God Almighty. At the same time, they use Jeremiah I,v as their proof that God favors fetuses. This is odd, because for over a century Catholics have been using the same verse as the justification for the mother of Jesus being the Immaculate Conception.
In short, since God can do anything, God should be left out of the argment about abortion. (God does, after all, abort 3.5 milliion babies a year.)
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October 31, 2011 at 1:12 pm
Is it hard to believe that an atheist don’t believe in abortion?
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October 31, 2011 at 2:10 pm
I am waiting for an answer…
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October 31, 2011 at 3:10 pm
Karine, some of us don’t check in on this site every 58 minutes or less; but MacDonald’s has ruined Americans’ ability to defer grastification. Atheists shouldn’t eat there, anyway.
I believe that there are atheists who don’t believe in abortion; the question I have is, “Why don’t they?”
Why others DO believe in abortion is fairly easy to answer: self-interest, the needs of the family they already have, the conqeuqences if they realtives find out, and so forth. But why atheists don’t believe in abortion rights for OTHERS has not been satisfactorily answered. The only encompassing hypothesis for that attitude is aborticentrism. You can check it out and see how much of it applies to atheists.
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October 31, 2011 at 3:38 pm
I thought that that was all life haters did. SORRY, but I couldn’t resist, I hate the name calling myself.
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November 2, 2011 at 6:05 pm
“Karine, some of us don’t check in on this site every 58 minutes or less.” I check in every half hour. But no more if you keep editing me.
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November 5, 2011 at 10:08 am
Your low threshold to wait for an answer is hilarious in the context that you do not answer questions yourself Karine.
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November 1, 2011 at 8:42 am
Of course, there are some atheists who dont believe in abortion. What is your point, Karine?
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November 1, 2011 at 9:33 am
Maybe if you were away is good to read all the comments before answering questions with such a tone. The question was not directed at you but at other people that certainly got what my point was.
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November 2, 2011 at 10:08 am
Actually, Karine, I meant no “tone” in my email. I just didn’t get where you were coming from and didn’t read the other comments right away. Mea culpa…
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October 31, 2011 at 2:20 pm
It is funny how they assume you are a religious nut and you oppose abortion.
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October 31, 2011 at 6:13 pm
It’s because most ProLifers are religious nuts.
Doesn’t make it right to presume one is a nut because of the association, but the odds are if you are ProLife you are pretty nutty and have an unusual inconsistent set of beliefs.
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November 1, 2011 at 8:43 am
Well I’ve tried to respond to this twice, but no go. Guess you’re disallowing my little tricks.
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November 3, 2011 at 1:23 pm
OK, Par, twice I’ve responded to Katie with something like this: “It’s because most people like Katie are religious nuts. Doesn’t make it right to presume one is a nut because of the association, but the odds are if you are like Katie you are pretty nutty and have an unusual inconsistent set of beliefs.” And twice it’s disappeared.
Now the editor might say that repetition is boring, and she’d be right, but I don’t know a better way than that to show someone she’s saying something stupid.
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November 1, 2011 at 9:24 am
Is it ok with pro choicers that one can be against abortion? I am against it but it doesn’t mean I will go protest in front of a clinic and shout to the women how wrong what they are about to do is. I think that to each its own.
The biggest problem that I have with pro choicers is that they want you to accept it and to say that it is ok to kill as long as that is a choice the women made and that is absolutely not happening, at least not to me anyway!
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November 1, 2011 at 10:01 am
Can someone translate Karine’s comment for me, I am just not intelligent enough . . .
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November 1, 2011 at 10:25 am
Oh Amy don’t read my comments, how about that! If you can’t understand it, ignore it. Simple isn’t it!!!
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November 5, 2011 at 10:11 am
Karine I agree with the comments about your unanswered questions.
Are you, Karine, wrong as JD suggests?
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November 1, 2011 at 12:12 pm
Now, Amy, Karine’s comment was perfectly clear. She just asks why you killers’ helpers refuse to let us prolifers condemn abortion — “they want you to accept it and to say that it is ok.”
However, Karina is wrong. You killers’ helpers do not want us to say abortion is ok. You want us to say it is wonderful, fulfilling, and enriching. In other words you want us to consider child killing a sacrament.
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November 2, 2011 at 10:14 am
Wrong, John, wrong. I dont care what you say. See my comment above.
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November 2, 2011 at 10:38 am
You’re different, Pat. If things continue to go badly, the average killers’ helper will go after you too.
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November 1, 2011 at 12:38 pm
Thanks for the translation, much easier to understand than what was written before.
Karine, is that translation an adequate depiction of what you were trying to say?
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November 1, 2011 at 2:03 pm
Amy,
I refuse to be put down by you, you understood what I wrote but for some odd reason you want to feel like you a better or more intelligent than the rest of us. If you were to stupid to understand, yes what Dunkle said is correct!
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November 1, 2011 at 2:46 pm
below I meant are not a*
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November 1, 2011 at 2:47 pm
above I guess. LOL
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November 1, 2011 at 12:40 pm
Karine,
are you wrong as Dunkle suggests?
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November 5, 2011 at 9:39 am
I guess Karine doesn’t like to answer questions.
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November 5, 2011 at 8:53 pm
it appears so.
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November 1, 2011 at 2:57 pm
So, Karine, if I understand you correctly, you detest abortion but you will not directly (e.g., by blockading)or indirectly (e.g., by voting for a law like Mississippi’s “personhood” bill, contributing to Randy (literally) Terry’s latest hate campaign or basing your vote on a politician’s so-called “pro-life” stance rather than other qualities) force a woman to carry a fetus to term? If so, I must compliment you on your ability to keep your personal feelings in perspective. You are emotionally healthier than the members of that dysfunctional twelve-step movement.
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November 1, 2011 at 3:06 pm
Karine…if I read what you wrote right…are you saying that personally you are against abortion…but you would not try to take that right away from someone else?
If that is the case then…I think you are more Pro than Anti…..the bottom line it is a personal decision!!!
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November 2, 2011 at 10:13 am
Karine: I am totally okay with your being against abortion. That is your right. I also support your right to try to make abortion illegal through the legislatures and your right to protest. And, if a woman who is considering abortion wants to talk to you about “the other side”, that’s okay also. I just do not support your wanting to make abortion illegal again and I also would hope that once a woman has made up her mind that you would not harass her as she went into the clinic. I just think it’s cruel to be out there yelling at them, but it is in some ways your right to do so, unless there is a noise ordinance….
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November 2, 2011 at 10:42 am
“Karine . . . I also support your right to try to make abortion illegal through the legislatures . . . . I just do not support your wanting to make abortion illegal again . . .”
Careful here, Pat.
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November 2, 2011 at 2:27 pm
Agree, it’s cruel to yell at women as they enter the clinic. Only the satanic would act in such a low life way.
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November 2, 2011 at 2:37 pm
But D, in Allentown, with the deathscorts trying to drown us out, that’s the only way they can hear us! I’d talk to them quietly if I could, as I do in Reading.
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November 2, 2011 at 3:25 pm
I counsel you, my friend: Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
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November 2, 2011 at 6:08 pm
I like this, D. What the heck does it mean?
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November 1, 2011 at 10:42 am
Pro Lifers are the Penultimate example of incoherence, lack of integrity, and nonexistent consistency..
Look at them in Mississippi!
Trying to get rid of Birth Control and Life Saving Medical & Surgical interventions that even the Catholic Church agrees with!
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November 1, 2011 at 12:15 pm
First of all, D, what the ultimate example?
Secondly, what do we not want that the Catholic Church accepts?
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November 1, 2011 at 12:16 pm
what is the ultimate
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November 1, 2011 at 2:45 pm
Dylan, are you referring to the Pope’s advocacy of condom use to prevent HIV? So-called “pro-lifers” aren’t in favor of that.
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November 1, 2011 at 5:43 pm
neither is the Pope
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November 5, 2011 at 10:14 am
But the Pope was a Nazi at least.
Saw the horrors in his own town, and was complicit, and joined the German Army to support the cause of genocide.
Others refused to be complicit. The Pope set the example of helping the Nazis.
An ingeniously stupid choice to lead the Catholic cult.
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November 5, 2011 at 10:41 am
“An ingeniously stupid choice to lead the Catholic cult.”
Peruse this, T, and then rewrite it.
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November 5, 2011 at 8:51 pm
actually, he was drafted and he also deserted.
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November 6, 2011 at 9:20 am
Good for you, Rog.
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November 6, 2011 at 11:19 am
Rogelio,
This Pope was a killer’s helper.
He knew more than most Germans about the atrocities because of where he lived. This kind of person is not the best choice for a Pope. There are so many that led by better example.
The Pope chose to join the German Army.
He did not have to go.
Others did not join the Army.
They revealed more morality then the Nazi Pope.
He deserted out of fear for his life on the battlefield as the Germans were then being decimated.
He was also in Nazi Youth. His own recount of this has had many changes in the story, to make it appear less unfavorable.
The Pope is a flawed Nazi Pope. Hardly someone who should be leading and providing by example in his own life morality. Certainly a highly fallible person.
I would not let my kids near the monster.
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November 1, 2011 at 8:45 am
Well, well. I just got back from New York City and I wanna welcome some of the new folks who are commenting!
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November 1, 2011 at 12:18 pm
Fly-by-nighters, I’ll bet, but, you never know. Some never leave! Todd’s back!
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November 1, 2011 at 3:17 pm
I just want to say that I was at the first NCAP meeting… We were all proud because we finally felt that we were being “pro-active” for a change!! We were finally NOT waiting on the “big guys” to speak for “women’s clinics”!! It was an important meeting in deed!! They may not have come to the 1st press conference…but they did come!! NCAP was an important group in a time when it was really need it!! My hat goes off to Ron Fitzsimmons for making that group a force to be reckoned with…
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November 2, 2011 at 10:17 am
Thanks for chiming in Lorraine! It’s always good to have the perspective of someone who worked in the abortion provider world. Yours was/is a perspective different not only from the pro-lifers but from many of the pro-choice groups as well….
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November 1, 2011 at 2:59 pm
Pat, another topic for a blog: When a Republican becomes President, the teen birth rate goes up because his appointees use government funding to push abstinence-only education. Check it out.
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November 1, 2011 at 5:54 pm
That is the lack of integrity and conviction and ironic consequences of ProLifer activity that people keep alluding to.
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November 2, 2011 at 5:02 am
If Pat researched this one, Chuckles, he’d find out the obvious — a killers’ helper is President for a while and he pushes child killing in various ways. The push takes a while before becoming effective. By that time a prolife President has been elected and starts to push prolife legislation, The child-killing rate rises for a while, though, because of the previous guy. Then folks like you come along and say the rise is due to abstinence, or anger, or poison reduction, or ten other things.
The opposite also happens. That’s why the rate actually fell for a while under Clinton.
Let killers’ helpers occupy the presidency for five consecutive terms and we’d be killing two-year-olds, eighty-year-olds, and the handicapped. Let prolifers last that long and the killers would be executed and you’d be jailed.
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November 2, 2011 at 10:21 am
The President “pushes” for abortion? Now, they might support abortion rights, but the word “pushes” implies to me that he is out there advocating that women have abortions. When did that happen, John?
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November 2, 2011 at 10:47 am
He pushes legislation that ensures older people will be able legally to kill younger people. But the coin will turn, the coin will turn.
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November 2, 2011 at 10:18 am
Hmmm….interesting thought, Charles. I will put it on my never ending list!
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November 2, 2011 at 1:54 pm
I don’t know what to say anymore. I am not going to change anyone’s minds here. If you support killing babies (yes, because to me fetus=babies) than that is your right ( a very %$#@& one).
Like I said we all have to deal with our choices when is just us laying our heads down at night.
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November 2, 2011 at 2:23 pm
So, are you going to leave us? (say, Yes)
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November 2, 2011 at 2:39 pm
maybe, but I ain’t
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November 3, 2011 at 9:54 am
I wouldn’t give you such a pleasure!! and who are you by the way? Never saw your comments anywhere…
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November 3, 2011 at 12:04 pm
Dina is Kate Ranieri. Everybody is Kate Ranieri.
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November 2, 2011 at 3:46 pm
Karine,
You don’t have a chance at changing minds because you do not even answer questions, you make continuous false presumptions, read tone that does not exist, and evade the issue routinely.
If you want to further your cause you should employ some integrity in your answers and discourse.
1) Is a fertilized cell a baby?
Try again . . .
2) Do you want to get rid of all abortifacients?
3) Is abortion Ever OK?
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November 3, 2011 at 5:54 am
Just in case K really does leave — 1) yes, 2) yes, 3) no
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November 5, 2011 at 10:17 am
Is Karine capable of answering a question?
Karine likes to regurgitate her misogynistic indoctrinations, that doesn’t take much brain power.
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November 2, 2011 at 4:42 pm
Karine, before you can change anyone’s mind, you have to be credible. My experience with the vast majority of self-proclaimed “pro-lifers” is that they go into defense as soon as I ask them a question which threatens their core– in your case, I ask you what makes you uncomfortable about abortion, and you don’t answer.
In psychiatry, this is often seen as a measure to protect oneself from disclosing what truly threatens the person’s ability to continue to function. For example, a woman who insisted her 12-year-old wasn’t raped, even though her husband admits he did it (it took hypnotherapy to work her through to an understanding of why she was in denial).
So, what is it about abortion that makes you uncomfortable?
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November 2, 2011 at 6:11 pm
OY VEY
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November 2, 2011 at 9:24 pm
shkutz!!!!
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November 5, 2011 at 10:18 am
Karine is not credible at all. Good point.
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November 5, 2011 at 11:12 am
And Karine disappears. . . .
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November 2, 2011 at 3:22 pm
Charles wrote that John Dunkle was unable to deal with the knowledge and implications of his own death so he struggles to convince himself he can transcend it.
So, John, die on purpose (from http://www.raptitude.com)
Imagine you’ve died but you can still watch what happens. You can even wander around the house or the neighborhood like that. Suddenly, the spectacle of what happens is all that’s important, and how it might affect you has nothing to do with it whatsoever, because there is no you.
If you can achieve that mindset of being utterly absent — and it’s not difficult — you will experience no self-consciousness, no worries, no angst, no fear. Just stuff happening. Interesting stuff. Poetic and absurd and compelling all at the same time.
The sensation of “not being there” is one of utter clarity. It will feel as if you’ve dropped a weight you never knew you were carrying.
Once you get a feel for that state, you will realize how much of your everyday thoughts are not about what actually happens, but about what’s in it for you or not in it for you. Those thoughts are the source of all self-consciousness, fear, longing and existential pain.
There is no sufferer, so there is no suffering. Curiously, beauty survives.
You will find that what happens around you is always beautiful and painless if you can watch it without evaluating it against your personal interests. And that’s easy to do when you’re not there.
So die, often.
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November 2, 2011 at 7:24 pm
Charles has said often that John Dunkle is engage in an allegorical battle against his own death. Here’s something for Dunkle to consider, to relieve himself of his struggles. Just Die on Purpose (thanks to Raptitude web site), as an activity:
“Imagine you’ve died but you can still watch what happens. You can even wander around the house or the neighborhood like that. Suddenly, the spectacle of what happens is all that’s important, and how it might affect you has nothing to do with it whatsoever, because there is no you.
If you can achieve that mindset of being utterly absent — and it’s not difficult — you will experience no self-consciousness, no worries, no angst, no fear. Just stuff happening. Interesting stuff. Poetic and absurd and compelling all at the same time.
The sensation of “not being there” is one of utter clarity. It will feel as if you’ve dropped a weight you never knew you were carrying.
Once you get a feel for that state, you will realize how much of your everyday thoughts are not about what actually happens, but about what’s in it for you or not in it for you. Those thoughts are the source of all self-consciousness, fear, longing and existential pain.
There is no sufferer, so there is no suffering. Curiously, beauty survives.
You will find that what happens around you is always beautiful and painless if you can watch it without evaluating it against your personal interests. And that’s easy to do when you’re not there.
So die, often.”
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November 3, 2011 at 5:51 am
I’m a Catholic, not a Buddhist!
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November 3, 2011 at 11:08 am
But Buddhism the only religion that hasn’t completely lost touch with what it’s supposed to be: a set of personal practices for transcending the human condition. The other religions are hung up on ego tripping about being pure or worthy or favored, about possessing the truth, about being on the right team, about me, me, me. They’re lost in the pitfalls they’re supposed to help people overcome.
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November 3, 2011 at 12:05 pm
yeah, whatever
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November 5, 2011 at 9:47 am
DoP,
The Religious fanatics will never get it. They are Hook, Line, and Sinker, into their myths and fantasies – they are so afraid of death they are blind to reality. They have minds of a young child with magical thinking.
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November 3, 2011 at 6:44 am
Okay, Die, it’s gonna take me a few readings to try to figure this one out. Very interesting stuff…..I think…
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November 3, 2011 at 5:52 am
Interesting article in the Washington Post about the personhood ballot in Mississippi the dismal health and life prospects for those living in that state.
The author also points out that there are “theological problems with defining fertilized eggs, embryos, and fetuses as persons. Of the world’s major religions (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism and Confucianism) only Catholicism formally forbids all directly intended abortion –and that is not because it has dogmatically held that the fetus is a person. From the casual political rhetoric of the U.S. bishops and the pope, one might believe that fertilized egg=person is a core teaching of the church, but a more careful reading of church documents show no such certitude. The most honest expression of the Catholic theological position is that given that we do not know when the fertilized egg becomes a person, we should treat it as if it were a person, just in case it is one.
Three passages from the Catechism are telling. Note the use of the term “human life” and “human being” rather than person and the explicit demand that all human life be treated as a person but no statement that it is a person. Also note that the reason given for prohibiting abortion and the sacredness of life is because it is created by God and has a special relationship to God, not because it is a person.”
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November 3, 2011 at 6:17 am
What a mishmash you create if you try. Look, the Catholic Church forbids killing innocent human beings. She says you become a human being when the sperm fertilizes the egg, and becomes one (cell). It’s just common sense and that’s why Catholicism is the true religion, and not Islam, Judaism, Ranierieism, Tillerism, or any of the other quadrillion, 95% of which are individual — “I believe what I want to believe.”
So what do you do. You focus on a word like person, fetus, child, baby, individual, and so on. Then you say things like, “See, the Catholic Church doesn’t say “it” is a baby!” And the worst part is then that you yourself believe that nonsense.
One more thing before you spit the hook: the Church wants you, Kate. When she says “we do not know when the fertilized egg becomes a person, we should treat it as if it were a person, just in case it is one,” she implies “even if” before “we do not know” and she is talking to you.
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November 3, 2011 at 11:11 am
Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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November 3, 2011 at 11:58 am
Are you convinced of that DoP?
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November 3, 2011 at 6:43 am
Strange, how Mr. Dunkle’s focus never gets beyond Death to arrive at care for the living, as is stated in the citations quoted by Kate. He never gets to the point of getting beyond the fetus, taking the steps necessary to nurture a child. Thanatocentric.
His appeal to Kate that the “Church wants her” is a carbon copy of the Moonie approach to their prospective cult inductee: effective with the person with no ego defenses, but ludicrously illogical to someone with a healthy level of self-regard.
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November 3, 2011 at 7:05 am
Charles, here’s more of what the author wrote about Mississippi, stuff that relates to your point:
“Mississippi is perhaps the last state with any standing to extend personhood to fetuses. A fertilized egg in Mississippi, should it be born, has one of the worst prognoses for a dignified life in the United States. What will that fertilized egg, once it is born, discover about how Mississippi treats persons?
The state ranks last among all states in health and third for the highest rate of diabetes and high blood pressure . It has the lowest per capita personal income and an unemployment rate of 10.6 percent. It is the last in academic achievement. More than 1 out of 5 people live in poverty. The state is second in the nation in terms of the imprisonment ratio (749 prisoners per 100,000 people.) If you are black, your chances of dying at birth or shortly thereafter are pretty high: fourteen out of every 1000 black infants ( 6.8 for whites) born die in childbirth or the first year of their lives. Your mother is more likely to die delivering you than mothers in 44 other states. If fertilized eggs could be afraid, surely the thought of being born in Mississippi would be traumatizing.”
And Dunkle worries about a fertilized egg…
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November 4, 2011 at 3:50 pm
Mississippi’s state bumper sticker used to be, “We Make Texas Look Good.” (Texas being barely above it in most quality of life indicators.) Now it’s going to read “Every Sperm is Sacred.”
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November 5, 2011 at 9:50 am
Mississippi has got to be the stupidest state in the union. Is there a way to get rid of it? Annex it to a better state, and send the fanatical bumpkins to Mali, or Somolia or something. That seems reasonable, no?
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November 3, 2011 at 7:17 am
I’ll respond to Chuck’s first paragraph here, and I’ll let LDM handle the second (it’s her type).
Chuck is still unhappy that I am trying to defend the lives of fetuses. He’d much rather have me help older people. And I would — if, for example, a million and a half between the ages of 5 and 10 were being tortured to death annually. But they’re not, yet. I’m sure, though, that when and if that does become legal, Chuck and his ilk will try to get me and my ilk to help teenagers instead. They will write things like, “He never gets to the point of getting beyond the child.” (By that time they will have made “child” into a curse word, as they have done to “fetus.”)
How do I know this? Because I know how Satan works. I’ve had lots of experience.
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November 3, 2011 at 7:29 am
The curse term Kate uses here for a young person is “fertilized egg” (just stretching the limits). And her argument is one of Chuck’s four absurd ones: we have to torture them to death; otherwise, they will suffer later.
Absurdity attaches itself to these killers’ helpers as breast cancer does to women who’ve aborted.
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November 3, 2011 at 11:14 am
All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
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November 3, 2011 at 12:09 pm
Is this another aphorism, DoP? I don’t like aphorisms.
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November 3, 2011 at 6:01 pm
People say I’m crazy for talking to myself. I say I’m just glad to have found an intelligent conversation.
John
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November 3, 2011 at 6:11 pm
Conquer thy own evils before you judge others.
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November 5, 2011 at 8:48 pm
like!
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November 4, 2011 at 11:32 am
For Mr. Dunkle, he does not believe fetuses are really what he calls them; he only uses terms like “pre-born child” to further his attempts at his own rescue. For him, fetuses are just game pieces– if he gets them across the finish line on the board he has designed, he wins. What happens to them after that has always been of no concern to him.
One can imagine the depths of the heartlessness there.
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November 4, 2011 at 8:20 pm
I think you might have said some good things here, Chuck. I’m not sure though.
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November 3, 2011 at 10:45 am
Pat wrote that yelling at women who enter an abortion clinic is cruel. I’d suggest it is what David Cain (raptitude) calls medieval mentality that focuses on the urge to punish. It’s with this type of mentality that some anti abortion protesters punish women who enter abortion clinics. They clearly lack compassion. They claim to offer compassion by speaking the truth, but their compassion is a ruse for their overarching need to be cruel.
Cain writes “Compassion is not just being nice. It is a basic understanding of what it means to be a fallible, suffering human being, and an expression of that understanding.
“Much more importantly, compassion undermines the self-righteous mentalities that lead to feuds, wars, violence and oppression. All of these travesties require the dehumanization of other people in order to rationalize them.
“Compassion is not bleeding-heart liberalism. It is not pity. It’s simply an intelligent response to the world’s biggest problem. The kill-the-bad-guys approach has never worked, it’s time to smarten up. It’s based on the falsehood of good and evil, rather than the unfortunate reality that normal humans are capable of horrible things” including fallible humans who are anti abortion protesters acting cruelly toward women.
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November 3, 2011 at 11:55 am
First, I’d put David Cain’s phrase where it belongs ; In order to rationalize them, all of these travesties require the dehumanization of other people.
Then I’d agree with it. Furthermore I’d ask, who on this blog call other people “fetuses,” “fertilized eggs,” “earthworms,” “growths,” “parasites,” “fetus/babies,” and other dehumanizing names?
I conclude by mentioning the second reason why I love this blog — when you killers’ helpers talk, you cannot help but incriminate yourselves.
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November 3, 2011 at 11:56 am
belongs:
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November 3, 2011 at 6:07 pm
Why does anyone pay attention to the drooling imbeciles? In fairness to those who show some hope for rehabilitation, let’s put those beyond hope in the bottom of a deep pit and then fill it with the crap they spew. Deanna, John Dunkle, prayingforyouproabortstoconvert, Karine — these are imbeciles not worth a breath of air nor a drop of water.
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November 3, 2011 at 7:23 pm
Kate says:
Forgive me if you think I implied John Dunkle is a drooling imbecile. I actually think he is a wonderful human being who is quite capable of lifting me out of my funk. And he just might succeed.
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November 4, 2011 at 9:57 am
WOW! I can’t say I am surprised!
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November 4, 2011 at 3:43 pm
Karine,
You’re back. How utterly delightful.
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November 4, 2011 at 8:22 pm
Kate says, :Karine, you’re back. How utterly depressing
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November 4, 2011 at 7:26 pm
How do people sleep at night knowing they ripped apart unborn babies? There is no excuse in this present day for ppl not to utilize birth control. People use abortion as birth control. How sad and sickening.
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November 5, 2011 at 4:13 am
“How do people sleep at night knowing they ripped apart unborn babies?” or helped ripped apart.
I know, I know, Sheila! The ripper himself, desperate for the loot; the woman, desperate to rid herself of a problem; the helpers, desperate anti-Catholics. How do they get through the nights, and days.
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November 5, 2011 at 9:54 am
Sheila,
ProLifers are trying to get rid of Birth Control also!
Reconcile that please.
Many ProLifers so not believe in Birth Control.
Reconcile that as well.
Birth control fails 1-2/100 women/year also.
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November 5, 2011 at 10:20 am
Sheila,
There are a lot of reasons that people cannot use many types of Birth Control.
How are you so uneducated on this topic, but still desire to opine dogmatically?
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November 5, 2011 at 10:54 am
In case Sheila declines, ask me. I am in an expert is all types of birth control, contraception, and killing young people. For example, I can tell you why prophylactics harm women.
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November 5, 2011 at 11:09 am
Sheila, it is nice to know that you are so concerned about “unborn babies.” What are you prepared to do for them after they’re born, or are you just indulging your fantasies about violence?
I knew a born baby whose parents killed it, wrapped it in plastic and hid it in the attic for four months. I knew another born baby whose internal injuries subsequent to her rape (by her father and his buddy) at two years old were described in detail at the autopsy following the fire in which the two tried to destroy the evidence. I knew another born baby who will never be a functioning adult because of her parents’ unceasing emotional abuse (she’s now 37).
So, tell me about the born babies whose lives you are saving.
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November 4, 2011 at 7:32 pm
Abortion Is Not Healthcare…..
This morning in the news I read that in Pennsylvania, the House is considering a bill that would require abortion clinics to operate under the same regulations as ambulatory surgical centers. Now most people would say, aren’t they already required to meet certain standards? The answer is NO!
Abortion, the most common surgical procedure performed on women in the USA, is also the most unregulated.
Think about it: You go to the doctor and find out you need minor surgery for, let’s say, a torn meniscus. What happens next? Well, the doctor explains the procedure in detail and tells you what to expect as you recuperate. He or she then sends you to the hospital about a week before the procedure for tests like blood work, chest X-ray, etc. The day of your surgery, you report to the ambulatory surgical center and meet with the doctor and the anesthesiologist. After your surgery, the doctor speaks to you or a family member, and then you are scheduled for a follow-up visit.
This is just standard care, but it is NOT what happens in an abortion clinic, where women usually do not see the doctor until they are on the table, feet in the stirrups! The doctor performing the abortion doesn’t have to be a specialist in OB/GYN. In fact, many of these abortion doctors have lost their licenses in other states. After the procedure, the women never see the doctor again. Oh, and there is no anesthesiologist.
It seems that most people would say abortion clinics should have to meet the same standards as any other ambulatory surgical center. Then why is it that the abortion supporters, like N.O.W. or Planned Parenthood, just to name a few, fight any suggestion to regulate abortion clinics. They claim to be concerned about women’s health, so why fight efforts to clean up the act of these abortion clinics? They claim it will limit access to abortion, which is nonsense. What these regulations will do is require these clinics to get their act together and provide better care for women.
In many states, there are laws on the books for veterinary clinics that require a certain standard of care for our pets, yet abortion gets a free pass.
Think about it.
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November 5, 2011 at 10:23 am
Sheila,
you may be the least educated person on this blog.
Do some real fact checking before you post misinformation.
Educate yourself, you are not qualified to have an opinion here after seeing what you have written. Your knowledge base is very extraordinarily low on the subjects you make opinions on.
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November 5, 2011 at 1:44 pm
The truth is, your opinions probably aren’t that important. And neither are the other person’s. Opinions will come and go, they speak mostly to our emotional state at the time we declare them. There is usually very little logic behind them, just feelings. And that’s okay. There is a brilliant Zen saying: Do not seek the truth, only cease to cherish opinions. This is not a prescription for dismissing what the other person is saying, only for cherishing the human being behind the words, rather than the back-and-forth play of semantics and mental positions
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November 6, 2011 at 12:48 pm
Is this another of your convictions, DoPe? Oops, drop the e.
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November 5, 2011 at 8:33 pm
jajajajajajajaja
elena seldom posts, but when she does, she doesn’t hold back what she thinks, does she?
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November 6, 2011 at 5:40 am
They wouldn’t let me say this again. “Duplicate,” they say: chow, chow, chow, chow.
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November 5, 2011 at 8:45 pm
i don’t think that choicers are actually against regulations in and of themselves.
they are against the fact that most of the bills being introduced are attempts to flush roe v wade down the toilet.
antis introduce these bills under the guise that they are to make it safer for women.
i am an anti. and i say that if we are honest, it is obvious that a bill that dictates the size of a janitor closet in an abortion clinic is an attempt to chip away at abortion access.
your 15th amendment gave black people the right to vote. roe v wade gave women the right to abortions.
the 15th amendment did not, however guarantee access, just as roe v wade didn’t guarantee access.
poll taxes prevented access to black people being able to vote.
choicers see most of the bills regarding abortion as poll taxes preventing access to abortion.
just because i am a religious nut who wants the world to live according to my beliefs ( not that this is likely to happen ) doesn’t mean that i can’t see what the true purpose of these bills are.
american politics are so lame.
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November 6, 2011 at 5:43 am
Rog, if you still think you’re prolife after writing the above, I’m Kate Ranieri.
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November 5, 2011 at 9:18 am
I am not anti-Catholic, John. What a silly thing to say. I disagree with the church on a lot of issues but I dont give a crap what church people belong to. Just as long as they stay out of my business..
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November 5, 2011 at 9:55 am
Church people are creepy.
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November 5, 2011 at 11:00 am
As I said, Pat, you’re different. The Church says, however, you’re wrong. She is already into your business whether you like it or not. I certainly wouldn’t like it if were not Catholic.
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November 5, 2011 at 11:03 am
if I were not
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