Women have the moral and legal rights to determine what is best for their own emotional and physical health, according to the World Health Organization. These rights are consistent with the human rights all human beings have, rights that include bodily autonomy, rights without which little else matters. Well-meaning doctors, legislators and judges in the United States have violated women’s human rights when they obstruct access to abortion, when they force women to undergo dangerous surgery and when they attempt to pass legislation that meddles with the doctor-patient relationship. Specifically, women’s rights are violated with any consideration of fetal personhood. Let’s recognize who is first in the personhood debate: the woman. Let’s begin with some facts about bodily autonomy.
Consider the woman who dies from severe head trauma in a motorcycle accident. Her driver’s license signifies that she is not an organ donor. Yet, harvesting her organs could give life to several people and it surely wouldn’t hurt her because she’s dead. But as the law reads, the organs remain solely under the purview of the deceased, her bodily integrity intact.
Or consider that people are not required to give blood. They could donate every 56 days, taking only an hour of their time, to save the lives of up to three people. And the personal risk is low. In fact, one hundred percent of the population is not required by law to give even a drop of blood. On a related note, people with very rare blood types are not required to give blood although not giving blood could literally kill someone who was dependent on that donation. Regardless, it is their blood to keep or donate.
Consider that people are not required to participate in an immunization program, even though immunizations are one of the best way to prevent the spread of disease and save the lives of many in our communities. Even though, immunizations have a very low risk to the individual, no human is required by law to be subjected to the invasive needles required for immunizations.
Or consider the teenage girl badly injured in a horse riding accident who now needs a kidney transplant. No one in her family—not her mother, aunt, father or cousin—is required to give this teen a kidney. Each family member has a choice because the law of land dictates that each person has control over his or her own body. A young teen’s eventual demise without someone’s kidney does not change this fact. And all the above are examples of bodily autonomy that humans in the United States should enjoy, unless one is pregnant. The gravid woman brings out the preachers, pundits and legislators want
What anti-choice people want is not human rights for a fetus; they want supra-human rights, rights that are over and above the rights of the woman. Calling a fetus a person does not change that fact that the fetus does not have the right to a woman’s body. Calling a fetus a person negates the woman as a person.
Consider our existing laws and how they might change if fetal personhood laws went into effect. Would a woman be able to claim her fetus as a dependent on her taxes while pregnant? If she miscarries, would she have to return the tax deductions to the IRS? Would she be charged with homicide if she miscarried? Would a pregnant woman be allowed to drive in the HOV (high occupancy vehicle) lane? If a woman drank two glasses of wine then 12 days later learned she was pregnant, would she be retroactively charged with child endangerment? Will women with children who have abortions be convicted of murder and serve the rest of their lives in jail? How will the state care for these now-orphaned children? For the college coed who was brutally raped by a fraternity brother and forced to carry the pregnancy to term, will the rapist have visitation rights for 18 years? Should the court appoint a guardian for visitations because of the father’s sexually predatory nature? Who will pay for this guardian: the mother, the father or the taxpayers? Which parent—the mother or the rapist—gets to deduct the child on their income tax? Will the legal birthdate be calculated by date of birth or date of conception? How will doctors or lawyers know the exact time and date of conception? The concept of Personhood creates a legal, financial and moral nightmare not to mention a likely logistical Pandora’s box with expensive governmental surveillance of all those fecund women. As a political aside, while the Gallup poll found that roughly two-thirds of Republicans across most major gender, age, educational, and income lines describe themselves as “pro-life,” the reality is that the Republicans are pro-birth. After birth, you’re on your own, witness the funding cuts to Head Start, WIC, SNAP and other life-supporting programs. They have been pushing the ‘limited government’ rhetoric while expanding government intrusion in women’s reproductive lives. Any fetal personhood law would likely cost billions in surveillance of women’s wombs, monitoring of births, and criminal justice expenditures, thus expanding the government.
Take this personhood argument further. If it becomes legal to force a person to allow another access to their body against their will for the purpose of saving lives, will we extend that law so all qualified human beings be on the National Marrow donor list or to give blood every two months? Does it mean that someone can requisition one of your kidneys (you only need one, right?) or a part of your lung? Can my childless 32 year old colleague requisition your 20-year-old daughter’s uterus for surrogate pregnancy? Should state-sponsored pregnancy be a job option for unwed and unemployed girls? Will we require sperm donations in healthy men with desired characteristics? Why not commandeer one of the grandchild’s corneas when the 76 year old grandfather still wants to drive his pickup truck but needs a cornea transplant? For all those women over 50, can we subject their bodies to transvaginal ultrasounds, blood tests and state-sponsored lectures about what they should expect as they age, what their eggs will look like or how their vaginas will change? These are dystopian questions, to be sure. But they are not too far from the path on which the current war on women is being waged.
Let’s face reality. The argument about fetal personhood is a ridiculous indulgence in imperialism, patriarchal structures and control of the female body and her fertility. It’s time to recognize the woman in the body, the first person, as the only legitimate person in a personhood debate.

August 15, 2012 at 10:18 pm
Actually organ donation should be strictly opt out rather than opt in and in fact I would go further and argue that once you’re deceased or irreversibly comatose you have absolutely no interest in your body since you’re no longer a person, just a mass of complex cells.
As for your other analogies they would only apply in the case of raped-induced pregnancy since the initiation of force is required to obtain access to someone’s bodily resources in all those examples you gave. In the case of pregnancy as a result of voluntary sexual contact there was no need to initiate force for the unborn z/e/f to obtain access to a woman’s bodily resources.
Basically all you’ve proven is that there is an absolute human right to refuse medical treatment, hardly a revelation. At no point have you proven that anyone has the absolute human right to have abortion drugs or surgical treatment. The right to privacy in medical decisions does not logically entail the right to any and all medical procedures you might want to have.
In fact the European Court of Human Rights has utterly rejected the notion that abortion could be a legally protected human right. See: A.B.C. v Ireland [2010] ECHR 2032. Furthermore, this is the only court on human rights with a legally binding and enforceable jurisdiction on the contracting states. In contrast that WHO reference is meaningless.
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August 16, 2012 at 7:29 am
Spoken like a man
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August 16, 2012 at 7:21 pm
Ad hominem.
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August 16, 2012 at 10:04 pm
Andrew, you are entitled to your opinion, including the ‘ad hominem’ but the truth of the matter is that regardless of your biological determination, you are a male, as in patriarchal, misanthrope
Your ad hominem comment is meaningless.
You either do not understand or are not willing to understand women’s lives. Shame on you.
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August 17, 2012 at 2:32 am
The use of an ad hominem fallacy is a matter of fact not opinion; rather than address a single argument I made you instead chose to focus on my gender.
You can keep claiming it is meaningless and that I am a “patriarchal, misanthrope” because you’re entitled to your opinion, but the truth of the matter is you have not offered a single valid rebuttal to my argument.
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August 17, 2012 at 3:10 am
And don’t expect one, A.
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August 17, 2012 at 8:21 am
Andrew, get pregnant, be responsible for 18 years for the nurture of a child you never wanted to have, and get back to me.
The fetal Ted Bundy never killed anyone; the real Ted Bundy killed between 35 and 61.
Which is the greater good, that one should live and 61 die, or that one should die and 61 live?
It is not abortion, but the care of a real child that is the paramount concern.
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August 17, 2012 at 8:21 pm
So I can talk only after I’ve got pregnant and raised an unwanted child for 18 years? That didn’t stop the 9 men on the SCOTUS back in 1973 so I don’t see why I have to adhere to that absurd rule. What next? I can only talk about gun control after I’ve been the victim of gun violence?
Since you’re playing the “greater good” card, let’s test your consistency. Is it the greater good that a woman be allowed to choose to keep a z/e/f that we know will be neglected when they’re born or should she be forced to abort it? If you aren’t an advocate of forcible abortions for the “greater good” then you have no basis judging me or anyone else by that standard.
I agree that the care of a real child that is always the paramount concern but I don’t see what abortion has to do with that unless you’re advocating forcible abortions to spare future children from suffering.
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August 17, 2012 at 8:24 pm
Just to elaborate, we already allow people who we know will neglect and abuse their children to choose to give birth to them. Those children often grow up to cause suffering to others by committing crimes. So let’s discuss the “greater good”. Force one abortion and save many from suffering.
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August 18, 2012 at 7:12 am
You’re talking about two different things here, Andrew– forcing a woman to have an abortion and letting a woman decide whether she wants to have one.
I advocate for dedicating myself to care for the child I insist a woman bears– completely and unreservedly for its entire minority.
I will not force her to bear a child I walk away from. Nor will I force her to abort a fetus which I think might grow up to be the next Ted Bundy. Where do you stand with these scenarios?
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August 18, 2012 at 7:19 pm
I am only talking about forcing a woman to have an abortion as part of the “greater good” argument. The thing with “greater good” arguments is they have only one limiting principle; that the greatest good for the greatest number is achieved. You cannot appeal to the “greater good” to support your argument then proceed to limit its general application by saying “but women should be allowed to choose” unless it actually happens to correspond to the ascertainable “greater good”.
I advocate better support and care for unwanted children generally and I believe that the most moral course of action is to adopt the unwanted.
I do not support forcible abortions because I believe the right to consent to or refuse medical treatment is an absolute human right.
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August 19, 2012 at 7:49 am
You’re still talking about two different things, Andrew– forcing a woman to have an abortion (which “pro-choicers” don’t do, if they are true to their principles) and forcing a woman to bear the next Ted Bundy.
The next Ted Bundy can be prevented through application of proper nurture. It happens every day. Read Joel Norris’ book, Serial Killers.
If the woman wants to have an abortion and is denied it, then it is going to be a case of one living and sixty-one dying, rather than one dying and sixty-one living, unless. . .
Unless someone steps up to provide that eighteen years of needed nurture.
So, when a woman wants to have an abortion, what are you going to do about it?
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August 19, 2012 at 6:39 pm
Well I am glad we agree that the focus needs to be placed on how we nurture children. However, I find it strange that you persist with this “greater good” argument.
You’re correct that a pro-choicer who is true to their principles will not force or coerce a woman to have or to not have an abortion. Therefore, a pro-choice philosophy is means-orientated not consequences-orientated making the “greater good” an irrelevant part of that discussion. Basically if you’re pro-choice then whether the choices of pregnant women happen to better or worsen a society is utterly irrelevant. For example if societal problems arise from the lack of females being born in China due to sex-selective abortions then that is just part of allowing women to choose to abort for any reason.
If you’re bringing up the “greater good” only in the context of child care then we agree that proper nurture should result in better outcomes for those children and society as opposed to ignoring the problem. Obviously I am happy for my taxes to go to pay for this care.
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August 19, 2012 at 2:11 pm
And from Andrew, the rest is silence….
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August 22, 2012 at 7:57 am
Wrong again, Chuck.
Don’t you get tired of being wrong?
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August 21, 2012 at 8:48 am
Well, the European Court of Human Rights said in A, B, C vs Ireland that the first two women had the right to travel so the Irish state wasn’t totally taking away their right to abortion by allowing them that at least.
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August 21, 2012 at 8:51 am
Well the European Court of Human Rights said that Ireland wasn’t infringing on A & B’s human rights because they had the right to travel to England for an abortion, but that in the case of C the Irish Government was because they put her life in danger by not making it clearer that she was allowed an abortion when the pregnancy threatened her own life.
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August 16, 2012 at 4:52 am
I’m going to use “young person” in the following response because Kate and people like her have turned “fetus” into a curse word, as earlier killers and their helpers did with “nigger” and “Jew.”
OK: “Calling a fetus a person does not change the fact that the fetus does not have the right to a woman’s body.” That’s for sure. This is also for sure: Calling a woman a person does not change the fact that the woman does not have the right to a young person’s body.
You pro-death people simply will not face this fact: two people are involved in child killing. Just because the stronger one may kill the weaker one does not make it OK. Might does not make right.
(Here’s is an aside: We Catholics have our formalized prayers — “Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee,” and so on. Our opposites are now forming theirs. See Kate’s first paragraph above — “Women have the moral and legal rights to determine what is best for their own emotional . . .,” and so on as well. Read the rest of Kate’s paragraph. Haven’t all of us concerned with this issue heard that countless times? The kayhaitchers are committing these passages and similar ones to memory.)
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August 16, 2012 at 5:08 am
Look at the pictures EC includes here. The first caption, “This is not a chicken” is a lie. Fact is it’s a dead young chicken. The second caption, “This is not a tree” is another lie. Fact is it’s a very young tree. The third caption, “This is not a dress” is the only true statement. The fourth caption, “This is not a person” is the third lie. Fact is she’s a very young person. Par for the pro-deathers’ course — 75%, in Kate’s case 93%, of the things they say are lies.
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August 16, 2012 at 9:10 am
This piece feeds into the so-called “pro-lifers’ ” agenda of pretending that they care about fetal life– they are not into “supra-human” rights; they are into it to meet their emotional needs for surety of transcendence over Death.
If they were truly assured that Death would not mean their end, if they were not so terrorized about the possibility of true oblivion beyond the grave, if they were of sufficient faith in their God, the universe and/or themselves, they wouldn’t play at being “heroes” for a victim selected for the perfection of its victimhood, trying to save it from the perfect villain.
Accusing them of engaging in an issue of “supra-human” rights continues the battle on their turf– and that’s where psychopaths always win.
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August 16, 2012 at 9:26 am
Chuckles is the only participant on this website who is neither pro-life nor pro-death. Chuck has no interest at all in legal child killing. He is still obsessed with people who had hurt him during his formative years. The hurt had to be profound because now, years later, the wound seems only to have festered.
Unfortunately for the pro-life side, those who hurt him so deeply seem to have been pro-life. Oh, that they’d been pro-death. Then we’d have a powerful advocate, far more powerful than he is now for the pro-death side, because then he’d be on the side of truth..
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August 17, 2012 at 8:17 am
Mr. Dunkle, having suffered the normal slings and arrows of childhood, rather than exceptional duress, has failed to develop a connection with the confused and victimized. As a result, he has no sense that he can save children from the bullying, intimidation and victimization he witnessed as a child; he does not act to shield children from and guide them safely through the experiences he either witnessed or experienced as a child.
He does not care whether children shouldn’t be treated better than those he knew in his childhood.
Instead, he campaigns on behalf of a victim which he has created to meet his needs: He wants to be the defender of a spotless victim, endowed with all perfection (and unable to contradict his characterizations of it). He creates the perfect villain, a concept rather than an actual being, which cannot inflict harm on him as he battles to defend the subject of his attention.
He claims modesty in refusing to disclose his “history of helping real children,” quoting the Bible: “Let your right hand knoweth not what your left hand doeth.”
He cannot bring himself to do so because metaphorically, he has no right hand.
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August 17, 2012 at 2:03 pm
I read this three times trying to figure it out. I’m heroic.
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August 17, 2012 at 4:28 am
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August 17, 2012 at 5:08 pm
Chuck in disguise — makes as much sense as “Mr. Dunkle . . .,” above.
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August 18, 2012 at 8:11 am
the bodily autonomy argument is one for which there is no valid anti-abortion response.
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August 18, 2012 at 10:44 am
Bodily autonomy doesn’t permit one to kill another; to use that argument you must argue that a mother and her child are the same person. The bodily autonomy argument is, therefore, ridiculous and the anti-abortion rejection of it is not only valid, it’s obvious.
Still can’t face the facts, can you Rog.
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August 18, 2012 at 11:56 am
Well, Mr. Dunkle, if she doesn’t want to care for either the fetus or a child, what are you willing to do to care for either in her place?
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August 18, 2012 at 12:20 pm
Don’t you worry about that, Chuck, Just leave it to me.
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August 18, 2012 at 3:57 pm
Andrew makes a good argument. However, he summarizes, “all you’ve proven is that there is an absolute human right to refuse medical treatment, hardly a revelation.” But the converse of his summary is also true, there is an absolute human right to accept medical treatment. (This does not mean a right to get such treatment, just to accept it or ask for it.) Refusal and acceptance are opposite sides of the same coin.
Bloggingfem’s 7th paragraph regarding “personhood” laws should scare any thoughtful person. The twists and turns she laid out are frightening, reminding me of some “treatments” on blacks in the pre WWII years.
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August 18, 2012 at 7:10 pm
Yes that’s correct David, it is really the absolute right to consent to and refuse any medical treatment. Of course we know there are exceptions for very young children but at least for rational adults that is the principle and law.
However, as explained in my first post, I have yet to see how this entails the right to have abortion drugs or surgery. Only a more general bodily autonomy argument can logically support such an assertion and then I ask what does this necessarily entail? Can the government restrict any medical treatments offered or does our bodily autonomy impose a duty not to restrict the medical treatment we can obtain? We could start by abolishing the FDA.
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August 18, 2012 at 7:11 pm
Not just treatments on blacks, but white and black women who were deemed unfit and were sterilized. Consider the black woman who had cancer, who was treated at Johns Hopkins and who had her body tissues used for research against her informed consent, and the millions who benefited from this woman’s body. I could continue but will not because it doesn’t matter to the majority who respond on this blog.
Our government has a seedy side just like other governments. The U.S. is not all that perfect.
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August 19, 2012 at 5:26 am
The discussion among Dave, A, and Kate is now over my head. In a futile attempt to follow, I reread Kate’s seventh paragraph. Twice!
Isn’t it a classic example of the #1 pro-death argumentative fallacy — offer a worthless reason for legal child-killing, realize immediately its worthlessness, then offer another to subvert the reader’s realizing that too, and continue similarly through twenty more?
Kate’s first argument for the rightness of being allowed to kill people through the first nine months of their lives is that if we were not allowed to kill them, we’d be able to deduct them on our income tax forms. Considering that in these days a wanted pregnancy usually leads to birth, that’s an interesting point. But to then conclude that therefore we may kill them is absurd!
Each of her thirty following arguments is equally absurd. Pile them up anyway though. The thinking is, forty absurdities equal one rationality.
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August 19, 2012 at 7:15 am
In response to the European Court’s decision to state that abortion is not a right is just that–their decision. It is not the U.S. decision nor any other country’s or institutional body’s decision. Regardless of any court’s decision, just because they ‘say so’ does not mean it’s not a right. Until women have equal status in all aspects of their lives, rights will be meaningless, as they are now. That’s why women and men speak up for women’s rights to abortion, access to prenatal care, safe and affordable child care, fair pay, equal parenting and much more. Also, here’s a tidbit to chew on.
In a recent decision in the case of Lakshmi Dhikta v. Nepal, the Supreme Court of Nepal ruled that the country’s government must guarantee access to safe and affordable abortion services. Specifically, it affirmed the need for a comprehensive abortion law and emphasized the government’s obligation to ensure that no woman is denied a legal abortion just because she cannot pay for it.
The court explains that since there is no universal consensus defining when life begins, and because Nepalese law does not distinguish fetal rights, it will not recognize the fetus as a human life. Further, the court notes that since there is no fetus without a mother, there can be no infringement of a woman’s right to physical and mental health and well-being in the name of a fetus; the fetus cannot supersede the protection of a woman’s physical and mental health and well-being. The decision provides several examples to demonstrate that the recognition of any right before birth would be inconsistent with this and violates a myriad of women’s fundamental human rights. Interestingly, the Supreme Court of Nepal cites in its decision Roe v. Wade, noting that the United States Supreme Court did not recognize the fetus as a human life.
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August 19, 2012 at 9:01 am
Thanks for stating the obvious. Yes the European Court is a supranational human rights court so its decisions are only directly applicable in the 47 contracting states.
Btw nice copy-paste job on an article which refers to but does not reproduce the decision of the Nepalese Supreme Court. I was suspicious when I noticed the quote “the United States Supreme Court did not recognize the fetus as a human life”.
In contrast there is actually a direct quote in the Roe v Wade judgement stating “We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins.” So rather than recognize the fetus as a human life or claim it is not a human life they chose not to resolve that issue at all.
Try a more impartial source in future. The centre for reproductive rights is like me coughing up quotes from a Christian pro-life website. I think we can both reasonably expect better than that right? 🙂
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August 19, 2012 at 9:09 am
Btw that is literally all rights are.. they are directly enforceable corresponding obligations on others. If the highest court in the land says you have a right then you clearly have a right and conversely if they say you don’t then you don’t.
In the 47 contracting states to the European Convention on Human Rights there is currently no right to abortion. In the United States there currently is a right to an abortion.
However, we could abandon the argument over rights altogether since its neither here nor there in western countries and instead discuss the morally relevant interests at stake.
My argument is that whilst bodily integrity is a morally relevant interest it does not of itself outweigh the morally relevant interest the unborn has its future as a person with experiences. However, if the unborn is a threat to the life of the pregnant woman then she can kill it in self-defense. So it really depends on the circumstances like every other case of conflicting interests.
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August 19, 2012 at 9:52 am
Nope, the woman’s interest is ALL that matters.
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August 19, 2012 at 1:28 pm
And that woman is Kate.
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August 19, 2012 at 6:52 pm
Well you’re entitled to hold that view but you have not explained why it is a valid position to hold.
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August 20, 2012 at 1:46 pm
I have explained but you seem to be unwilling to accept what I have posted. Simply put, reproductive freedom lies at the heart of the promise of human dignity, self-determination, and equality. When a woman is denied her reproductive rights—when she is denied obstetric care, birth control, the facts about reproductive health, or safe abortion, as the women above were—she is denied the means to direct her own life, protect her health, and exercise her human rights.
You are free to accept a woman’s human rights or not.
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August 20, 2012 at 6:50 pm
You have made the case for the human rights of pregnant women but then you go and just proclaim that “the woman’s interest is ALL that matters”, without providing further explanation.
Does the woman have a legitimate interest in their bodily integrity? Yes, I have already accepted this. You, on the other hand, have chosen to totally disregard the interests of the unborn so an explanation appears to be in order.
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August 19, 2012 at 2:15 pm
If the woman is not ready to care for the consequent child, Andrew, who will be? Is it better that one live and sixty-one die for lack of care for a human life? All the so-called “pro-lifers” do is care about it, not for it.
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August 19, 2012 at 6:48 pm
OK now I see where you’re going with this. So if I don’t want a woman to kill her newborn do I suddenly have to raise it? If my thoughts on that action do not impute a personal responsibility onto me for the care of that child then why would my thoughts on abortion?
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August 20, 2012 at 11:50 am
Andrew, SOMEBODY has to care for the born child! She will not.
You want her to bear it; therefore, either it gets thrown to the wolves (see Beisner’s article, excerpted above) or you care for it. Do you have a problem with that?
The amount of taxes we Americans pay for the well-being of children is laughable; I am not proud of the pittance I pay. A true “pro-lifer” would be militating for a HUGE shift of tax revenues– or an increase in taxes– to help parents get the $270,000 worth of goods and services needed to help a child make it to age eighteen. Of course, they don’t.
“The greater good” argument– whether it is better to have one live and sixty-one die or one die and sixty-one live– is not a hard-and-fast rule by which one should live, but a litmus test for how one views the value of human lives. Don’t go getting all Jesuitical on me!
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August 20, 2012 at 7:08 pm
I have no problem diverting more resources for the care of children whether they are wanted or unwanted. I also support govt funded, voluntary sterilization programs and other subsidies to prevent unwanted children or children people cannot afford to have being born.
I agree that the “greater good” argument is a litmus test for how one views the value of human lives. Those who would treat the life of one as the means to secure the lives of others are devaluing the lives of all.
If we boil the value of a human life down to a mathematical equation then we cannot complain when others use it to achieve consequences we do not personally approve of. What about the classic thought experiment of the homeless man who is killed so that 5 others who need one of his organs each are saved?
There could be a place for a “greater good” argument but only as a means to resolve a means-orientated dilemma. For example if I was deciding how to disperse money to charity and there are many people who need help I will have to prioritise who to assist because my means are justified regardless of who I help. In contrast deciding whether to abort or not to abort is not a means-orientated dilemma; either the means are justified or unjustified. Of course my view is those means are unjustified.
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August 19, 2012 at 9:52 am
A woman’s ability to exercise her rights to control her body, to self-determination, and to health depends, in part, on her right to determine whether to carry a pregnancy to term. And apparently that right is legalized recently in Colombia, Ethiopia, Mexico City, South Africa and Cambodia.
In fact, the The Maputo Plan of Action African for THE OPERATIONALISATION OF THE CONTINENTAL POLICY FRAMEWORK FOR SEXUAL AND REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH AND RIGHTS includes in their long range paln access to family planning and access to better abortion care. According to this plan, leaders have a civic obligation to respond to the Sexual and Reproductive Health needs and Rights of their people. This Action Plan is a clear demonstration of their commitment to advance Sexual and Reproductive Health and Rights in Africa.
And in a document from the Population Division of the Department of Economic and Social Affairs of the United Nations Secretariat, the 1996 abortion law is now the most liberal in Africa and, indeed, the world, authorizing the performance of abortions not only during the first trimester of pregnancy on request, but also through the twentieth week of pregnancy on very broad grounds, including socio-economic grounds.
Finally, an article from Human Rights Law Journal (Zampas and Gher), Abortion as a Human Right—International and Regional Standards, focuses on the striking expansion of international and regional human rights standards and jurisprudence that support women’s human right to abortion. It summarises pertinent developments within the United Nations, European, Inter-American and African human rights systems regarding abortion, as they relate to women’s rights to life and health, in situations of rape, incest or foetal impairment, and for abortion based on social and economic reasons and on request. In doing so, the article touches on charged issues such as maternal mortality, prohibitions of therapeutic abortion as infringing on the right to be free from cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, and state procedural obligations to ensure women’s right to access legal abortion. Finally, the article addresses the growing recognition by international human rights bodies that criminalisation of abortion leads women to obtain unsafe abortions, threatening their lives and health, and recent national-level developments in the field.
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August 19, 2012 at 1:29 pm
Is Cut & Paste the same as SPAM?
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August 19, 2012 at 6:58 pm
Denial of an abortion as an infringement on the right to be free from cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment is certainly a novel argument. I would like to see the exact reasoning behind that if there is any.
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August 20, 2012 at 9:31 am
In referring to reproductive rights, military metaphors are often used to describe the dynamics between those who support and those who would constrain women. If abortion access is “war”, then the state of Mississippi is the frontline, with the recent attempt of the state to implement requirements that abortions be performed by board certified/board eligible physicians in obstetrics and gynecology (OB-Gyn), and who hold hospital admitting privileges at a facility nearby. These regulations would shut down the remaining abortion clinic in the state, effectively denying women their constitutionally-protected ****right to abortion**** simply because they live in the state of Mississippi. Proponents of such an action argue that they are “protecting” the health of women, but the truth would suggest otherwise.
http://blog.nationalpartnership.org/index.php/2012/08/going-to-mississippi/comment-page-1/#comment-31751
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August 20, 2012 at 4:00 pm
Further explication on the concept of the “greater good.:
Andrew wrote:
“Therefore, a pro-choice philosophy is means-orientated not consequences-orientated making the “greater good” an irrelevant part of that discussion. Basically if you’re pro-choice then whether the choices of pregnant women happen to better or worsen a society is utterly irrelevant. For example if societal problems arise from the lack of females being born in China due to sex-selective abortions then that is just part of allowing women to choose to abort for any reason.”
The fact is that in the main, the choice of a woman to remain pregnant or have an abortion is for the greater good.
No matter how flawed her reasoning– and I dealt for more than a quarter century with hundreds of women with very flawed reasoning (usually due to childhood trauma and childhood familial dysfunction– if the woman has her say in the matter, she will almost always act thereafter in a manner consistent with her choice. No “post-traumatic abortion syndrome” posturing, and no matter how flawed her parenting, she will act as best she can for her child’s welfare. And that tends to contribute to the greater good. It is for this reason, I believe, that 30% of children born into circumstances similar to Ted Bundy’s rise above their station and lead reasonably fulfilling adult lives.
The greater good does exist; if it did not, society would be Hobbesian in the extreme. It is only in the individual interpretation that the concept is called into question.
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August 20, 2012 at 7:21 pm
Like I say above, there could be a place for a “greater good” argument but only as a process to resolve a means-orientated dilemma. However, the mere fact that pro-choice philosophy on balance may result in the “greater good” does not of itself make it a valid means unless you can prove that it will result in the greatest good for the greatest number compared to any other abortion policy.
On balance killing homeless people and harvesting their organs may result in the “greater good” but it does not make their killing a valid means. It devalues the lives of all to boil the value of those lives down to a mathematical equation.
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August 21, 2012 at 7:48 am
Andrew, we are not talking about killing the homeless and harvesting their organs; we are talking about women having the right to determine how many children they will bear. Therefore, the “greater good” argument applies.
The facts are already out there that show that children who are born wanted in general do better than children who are born unwanted, that women who seriously consider abortion and nevertheless choose to bear a child are better parents, and that children who are unwanted have more and greater asset deficits than children whose parent(s) wanted to have them.
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August 21, 2012 at 8:24 am
The “greater good” argument applies why? Is it because there is a means-orientated dilemma that needs to be resolved (e.g. choosing between charities) or are you asserting that pro-choice will always lead to the greatest good for the greatest number?
The facts also show that children who are born to neglectful and abusive parents do worse so why isn’t the pro-abortion stance even more moral in those cases? It is arbitrary to apply the “greater good” argument to promote pro-choice philosophy when it results in better outcomes then proceed to ignore it whenever a pro-abortion stance results in better outcomes.
You cannot turn the “greater good” argument off just because it gets a bit unpalatable unless you only use it to resolve means-orientated dilemmas. However, I don’t see how there is a means-orientated dilemma between killing and not killing the unborn any more than there is a means-orientated dilemma between killing and not killing the homeless person. If the means are prima facie wrongful then the “greater good” formula is simply inapplicable. That is the position I am taking anyway; abortion is prima facie a wrongful means to an end.
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August 21, 2012 at 11:15 am
Don’t leave, A, no matter how frustrated you get. We had two really smart prolifers on here last year but they got frustrated and left the field to a dummy like me.
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August 21, 2012 at 1:32 pm
Hey, Kiwi, what does master_beta_7 mean?
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August 21, 2012 at 6:55 pm
It means I enjoy puns 🙂
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August 21, 2012 at 1:56 pm
Sorry, Andrew, but the “greater good” argument happens to prevail in this particular subject; you can’t argue that it needs to be applied to every conceivable situation in order for it to apply to the case of women benefiting the greater good when they exercise autonomy in matters of reproductive choice.
You mischaracterize the pro-choice position as the equivalent of the so-called “pro-life” position: where the latter would compel women to carry to term, you posit the former as compelling women to have an abortion. This of course would strengthen your argument about the invalidity of the “greater good ” argument, but it is a false premise. Pro-choicers DO NOT evangelize about the need for selective abortions of any sort.
And you also make a false correlation between the fetus (which is humanoid) and a homeless person (who is a sentient, cognizant and functioning human).
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August 21, 2012 at 7:41 pm
A pure pro-choice position is not supported or weakened by “greater good” arguments, rather pursuit of the “greater good” appears to be of no relevance to a pro-choice philosophy. If giving women choice is the most moral position to take on abortion then the outcomes produced are irrelevant, whether they happen to better or worsen a society. I am sure that even if pro-choice laws in a given society did not result in the greatest good for the greatest number you would continue to be pro-choice? Or am I mistaken?
I focused on the “greater good” leading to a pro-abortion position in some cases but it could also lead to an anti-abortion position if there is an ageing population which needs to be remedied e.g. Germany. The “greater good” is a outcomes-orientated philosophy which will dictate which means we must use to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number. The only distinction it makes between the means we use is the requirement that whichever means we use does achieve the greatest good for the greatest number.
In contrast your final paragraph is a valid rebuttal of my argument provided you can substantiate it. You seem to be saying that killing the fetus cannot be a wrongful means because it lacks certain capacities that the homeless person possesses.
However, my rebuttal is that those capacities are not morally relevant in the case of deciding whether an entity has an interest in living. Sentience (the ability to feel pain) is certainly morally relevant to cruel treatment of entities. It is wrong to cruelly treat an animal for example because it is sentient. In contrast it would not be possible to cruelly treat a z/e/f that has not yet obtained sentience. But that is not relevant for determining whether it would be wrong to abort them.
Cognizance (awareness) could be morally relevant capacity to an interest in living but where would you draw the line? If mere consciousness is the standard for an interest in living then killing a bird or rat must be morally wrong in the same way as killing the homeless person. If full self-awareness is the standard then we could justifiably kill newborns unless we could find a different reason not to. Therefore, I would argue that cognizance as the reason it is morally wrong to kill appears to be invalid. But please do develop that point if you like.
I actually do agree that the unborn is not a person and killing it cannot be classified as murder. However, neither does a newborn appear to be a person based on its current capacities BUT I think killing it is nonetheless wrongful (infanticide).
The question is why is killing a newborn wrongful if it has not become a person yet? Because it has the capacity to develop personhood and the experiences that go with it is what gives it an interest in living. Since the unborn also has the capacity to develop personhood and the experiences that go with it, it must likewise have an interest in living.
Just to show that I have no species bias, I think any animal that will or has developed the capacities of personhood and the experiences that go with it will also have an interest in living.
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August 22, 2012 at 8:46 am
Very good, Andrew! Glad you’re commenting. I’ll reply farther down when I have the time.
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August 22, 2012 at 5:36 am
Since the unborn also has the capacity to develop personhood and the experiences that go with it, it must likewise have an interest in living.
####
First off, I agree there are some problems with the reasoning in this article, I don’t find the “capacity to develop personhood” without any other factors weighed in a very strong argument to be honest. I see the following problems with it:
First:
“An interest in living.” Everything has an interest in living, so do cancer cells, animals. These don’t have a capability to develop personhood. So I guess you mean that this interest in living is only relevant to entities that can develop (using human) personhood. Even though I agree that an interest in living is more or less gradual, to use an interest in living for an entity with absolutely no cognitive abilities an extreme cut-off point.
Fertilised Frozen Embryos also have an interest in developing living per your definition. Yet there is no law to force women to carry these to term (many are stores for IVF, but only some are implanted) so on its own this isn’t even seen as a legal bases in other circumstances.
Secondly:: The right to bodily autonomy is normally ONLY taken away is serious cases. For example if you are deemend a danger to yourself or others due to a breakdown in mental capacities. Assuming the woman is fully mentally capable of making a decision under the law, due to the fact her body is fully supporting (I am using a viabily cut-off here) an entity not fully capable of making any decisions, with merely a developing personhood, a right to the women’s body.
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August 22, 2012 at 6:31 am
Everything has a natural disposition toward survival but that does not mean everything has an interest in living or at least one that is worthy of moral consideration. Just because a plant or lower order animal will desperately finds ways to survive does not mean its life deserves moral consideration. So that rebuttal is invalid.
Fertilised frozen embryos require a further action of being implanted into a uterus. Since I have already accepted that the right to refuse medical treatment is absolute there is no way that any woman can be forced to undergo an implantation procedure. However, if any woman voluntarily chose to implant the embryo then they would not be permitted to remove it at least on my position.
No one is removing the right to bodily autonomy because we are assuming for the purposes of this discussion that the woman is a rational individual capable of making her own medical decisions.
The point I’ve already made above is that the right to bodily autonomy includes the right to consent to or refuse medical treatment. I would say an ancillary right is privacy in that decision-making. However, there is no right to get any medical treatment that you desire. Therefore, you will have to explain why a right to bodily autonomy or privacy in medical decisions logically entails the right to get any medical treatment you might desire.
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August 22, 2012 at 8:58 am
Just because a plant or lower order animal will desperately finds ways to survive does not mean its life deserves moral consideration. So that rebuttal is invalid.
#######
You are not addressing my point (maybe I didn’t make it clear enough).
I said: Even though I agree that an interest in living is more or less gradual, to use an interest in living for an entity with absolutely no cognitive abilities an extreme cut-off point.
You are not addressing the fact a z/e/f has no cognitive abilities based on the information we currently have about z/e/f development, the human brain, cognition.
No one is removing the right to bodily autonomy because we are assuming for the purposes of this discussion that the woman is a rational individual capable of making her own medical decisions.
####
Yes you are, based on the fact that a woman carries a developing human person. Your term “capacity to develop personhood”. So you ARE removing the right to bodily autonomy of the woman. You might see that as justifiable, but there’s no way around this. You can’t have it both ways.
But this is of no value to you when it is a separated fertilised egg cell, that is not implanted, because this is not developing?
You only grant personhood rights to z/e/f that have a possibily of developing?
Therefore, you will have to explain why a right to bodily autonomy or privacy in medical decisions logically entails the right to get any medical treatment you might desire.
###Those weren’t my points.
If you are referring to the Irish Law, I don’t agree with it, and the EU Court of Law rules was only a comment on Irish Law NOT on human rights, so to be pedantic you cannot say they ruled it wasn’t a human right, because the ruling did not deal with this question and EU member states laws on personhood/abortion are unaffected by this ruling, they stated they will not get involved in this.
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August 22, 2012 at 9:59 am
“I said: Even though I agree that an interest in living is more or less gradual, to use an interest in living for an entity with absolutely no cognitive abilities an extreme cut-off point.
You are not addressing the fact a z/e/f has no cognitive abilities based on the information we currently have about z/e/f development, the human brain, cognition.”
You have assumed that cognitive abilities are morally relevant to an interest in living. Which cognitive ability or abilities precisely? This isn’t my argument so you’ll have to make a proposition before I offer a rebuttal.
My argument is purely that the capacity to develop personhood and the experiences that go with it is what is morally relevant to an interest in living irrespective of the degree of cognitive ability. You could have more cognitive ability than anyone else (e.g. the greatest genius alive), little (e.g. a newborn) or none at all.
It is morally irrelevant to my position so unless a separate argument is presented demonstrating that cognitive ability is what gives us an interest in living then I don’t have to address it.
“Yes you are, based on the fact that a woman carries a developing human person. Your term “capacity to develop personhood”. So you ARE removing the right to bodily autonomy of the woman. You might see that as justifiable, but there’s no way around this. You can’t have it both ways.”
The right to bodily autonomy does not encompass the right to get any medical treatment you desire.
However, I am willing to accept that as a matter of fact my argument will limit a pregnant woman’s bodily autonomy. Moving on.
“But this is of no value to you when it is a separated fertilised egg cell, that is not implanted, because this is not developing?
You only grant personhood rights to z/e/f that have a possibily of developing?”
It has nothing to do with its capacity for personhood. It does technically have the capacity to become a person but the right of everyone to refuse medical treatment is absolute.
If I cannot be forced to give my blood to save a person’s life then I can hardly expect a woman to have an embryo implanted forcibly. That would be a completely indefensible inconsistency in reasoning.
“If you are referring to the Irish Law, I don’t agree with it, and the EU Court of Law rules was only a comment on Irish Law NOT on human rights, so to be pedantic you cannot say they ruled it wasn’t a human right, because the ruling did not deal with this question and EU member states laws on personhood/abortion are unaffected by this ruling, they stated they will not get involved in this.”
Firstly, to be pedantic, this is a Council of Europe court, not an EU court.
Secondly, please read the case. Here is an extract from para 213 to 214:
“The Court has also previously found, citing with approval the case-law of the former Commission, that legislation regulating the interruption of pregnancy touches upon the sphere of the private life of the woman, the Court emphasising that Article 8 cannot be interpreted as meaning that pregnancy and its termination pertain uniquely to the woman’s private life as, whenever a woman is pregnant, her private life becomes closely connected with the developing foetus. The woman’s right to respect for her private life must be weighed against other competing rights and freedoms invoked including those of the unborn child (Tysiąc v. Poland judgment, cited above, § 106; and Vo v. France [GC], cited above, §§ 76, 80 and 82).
While Article 8 cannot, accordingly, be interpreted as conferring a right to abortion, the Court finds that the prohibition in Ireland of abortion where sought for reasons of health and/or well-being about which the first and second applicants complained, and the third applicant’s alleged inability to establish her qualification for a lawful abortion in Ireland, come within the scope of their right to respect for their private lives and accordingly Article 8.”
You are correct that they didn’t say abortion is a violation of the unborn’s rights and must therefore be banned in every contracting state. Neither did they say abortion is a right and must therefore be legalized in every contracting state.
They instead asserted that it is within the discretionary power of each contracting state to make their own abortion laws i.e. the democratically elected legislature decides. It is not a rights issue, it is purely a political issue to be decided at the ballot box.
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August 22, 2012 at 11:19 am
You have assumed that cognitive abilities are morally relevant to an interest in living. Which cognitive ability or abilities precisely? This isn’t my argument so you’ll have to make a proposition before I offer a rebuttal.
######
What exactly is your argument then to be pro-life, meaning, no legal provision for abortion bar in the case of medical emergencies? Apologies if it is somewhere on the thread, it got rather long.
My argument is purely that the capacity to develop personhood and the experiences that go with it is what is morally relevant to an interest in living irrespective of the degree of cognitive ability. You could have more cognitive ability than anyone else (e.g. the greatest genius alive), little (e.g. a newborn) or none at all.
#########
OK see above you said there has to be a capacity of developing personhood.
I find this “capicity” argyment a rather tenous position. It is a version of “Somewhere in the future…”. Yes, but the future is not now. We don’t force people to fertilise their eggs (that would infringe on their right to their bodies) as this will cause an outrage. I find “capacity” on its own too vague.
RE cognitive abilities, I refer to brain development. No fully developed nervous system, and there’s nothing but reflexes, there is no sensory input processed in the brain, there is no ability to make the body move at will etc. This is where a just implanted fertilised egg is, and a fetus up to (what we know currently) 26 weeks gestation (according to most).
There are no experiences, as there is no brain to experience with. So there is nothing to “experience” personhood with.
It has nothing to do with its capacity for personhood. It does technically have the capacity to become a person but the right of everyone to refuse medical treatment is absolute.
###Maybe I misunderstood, but you are against abortion under all circumstances when the egg is implanted in a woman’s womb?
Why does an egg implanted in a womb DOES have an interest in life, but one that is kept aside (maybe it’s part of an IVF cycle) doesn’t?
As it also can develop into a born independent breathing/eating baby?
If its lying deep frozen, with the same “interest in life” it is not infringing on anybody’s right to their body. But in a woman it is. She is legally responsibly for letting it develop into a born, breathing baby when it’s in her womb, but when it’s part of an IVF cycle nobody is responsible?
Do you not feel there’s a discrepancy here? Or that the “interest in life” needs to be more clarified?
They instead asserted that it is within the discretionary power of each contracting state to make their own abortion laws i.e. the democratically elected legislature decides. It is not a rights issue, it is purely a political issue to be decided at the ballot box.
####
My bad RE court.
RE your comment on the court ruling, yes that’s how I read it too, they will not make a statement on the human rights issue and see it as a political issue. Human Rights Watch actually has, and commented the Human Rights Act according to them cannot be read to apply to z/e/f. Let’s leave that for now though before the thread length explodes 😉
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August 22, 2012 at 7:27 pm
<<>>
If abortion is the only way to save the life of the woman then it is justified. So it depends on the emergency I suppose. But the mere fact it is an emergency would not necessarily justify the abortion e.g. she is bleeding out but could be saved without aborting the unborn.
Sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to say there. Please clarify if I missed the point.
<<>>
If you are arguing that present cognitive abilities are all that matters then you still have to explain why and which specific ones. Is it the ability to be self-aware? In which case newborns have no interest in living.
I would also argue that the present cognitive ability of some reversibly comatose patients is on par with the unborn but the reason we accept they have an interest in living is they still have the capacity for personhood and the experiences that go with it. If they were irreversibly comatose then they lack that capacity altogether and the interest in living that goes with it.
Furthermore, I disagree with the claim that this is too vague. On the contrary this argument can determine which entities have an interest in living and which do not. Could you provide some examples that demonstrate its vagueness please.
<<>>
Our brain is not developed enough to experience personhood with, as you put it, when we are newborn either.
The brain begins to form within the first 3 weeks, but obviously it just isn’t developed enough to allow us to experience personhood with yet. But that doesn’t affect the capacity to obtain personhood unless the brain is severely defective to the point where the child could never obtain personhood.
On my argument those who we can determine are severely defective to the point where they lack the capacity to become persons can be aborted because they have no interest in living.
<<>>
Well IVF do have the capacity to develop into persons and therefore they do have an interest in living, You’ll note I even said in my previous post “It does technically have the capacity to become a person” i.e. it has an interest in living.
But I was also saying that an interest in living does not override the absolute human right to refuse medical treatment. Basically I am agreeing with the OP on this one. Even if the intrusion is minimal e.g. forcing me to give a little bit of blood to save someone’s life, it does not matter. They have an interest in living and I have a right to refuse to undergo medical treatment.
However, I think we have all agreed that the interest in living does not trump the right to refuse medical treatment so I think the issue is settled. Unless of course you wish to play the devil’s advocate.
“My bad RE court.
RE your comment on the court ruling, yes that’s how I read it too, they will not make a statement on the human rights issue and see it as a political issue. Human Rights Watch actually has, and commented the Human Rights Act according to them cannot be read to apply to z/e/f. Let’s leave that for now though before the thread length explodes.”
Well I actually agree that rights cannot apply to the unborn unless they are expressly accounted for in the text. However, the absence of rights for the unborn does not mean a state cannot within its own discretionary power define criminal offenses which prohibit its killing.
There are “feticide” or “fetal homicide” laws in many US states; they just don’t apply specifically to abortion in the first and second trimester because women currently have a Constitutional right recognized via Roe v Wade to abort in that time frame which automatically trumps the state’s power to define criminal offenses.
But you’re right this thread length is getting long so maybe we should leave this issue for another time 🙂
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August 22, 2012 at 7:34 pm
Sorry, I messed up the formatting of my reply by using those symbols.
##### What exactly is your argument then to be pro-life, meaning, no legal provision for abortion bar in the case of medical emergencies? Apologies if it is somewhere on the thread, it got rather long. #####
If abortion is the only way to save the life of the woman then it is justified. So it depends on the emergency I suppose. But the mere fact it is an emergency would not necessarily justify the abortion e.g. she is bleeding out but could be saved without aborting the unborn.
Sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to say there. Please clarify if I missed the point.
#### OK see above you said there has to be a capacity of developing personhood.
I find this “capicity” argyment a rather tenous position. It is a version of “Somewhere in the future…”. Yes, but the future is not now. We don’t force people to fertilise their eggs (that would infringe on their right to their bodies) as this will cause an outrage. I find “capacity” on its own too vague. ####
If you are arguing that present cognitive abilities are all that matters then you still have to explain why and which specific ones. Is it the ability to be self-aware? In which case newborns have no interest in living.
I would also argue that the present cognitive ability of some reversibly comatose patients is on par with the unborn but the reason we accept they have an interest in living is they still have the capacity for personhood and the experiences that go with it. If they were irreversibly comatose then they lack that capacity altogether and the interest in living that goes with it.
Furthermore, I disagree with the claim that this is too vague. On the contrary this argument can determine which entities have an interest in living and which do not. Could you provide some examples that demonstrate its vagueness please.
##### RE cognitive abilities, I refer to brain development. No fully developed nervous system, and there’s nothing but reflexes, there is no sensory input processed in the brain, there is no ability to make the body move at will etc. This is where a just implanted fertilised egg is, and a fetus up to (what we know currently) 26 weeks gestation (according to most).
There are no experiences, as there is no brain to experience with. So there is nothing to “experience” personhood with. #####
Our brain is not developed enough to experience personhood with, as you put it, when we are newborn either.
The brain begins to form within the first 3 weeks, but obviously it just isn’t developed enough to allow us to experience personhood with yet. But that doesn’t affect the capacity to obtain personhood unless the brain is severely defective to the point where the child could never obtain personhood.
On my argument those who we can determine are severely defective to the point where they lack the capacity to become persons can be aborted because they have no interest in living.
#### Maybe I misunderstood, but you are against abortion under all circumstances when the egg is implanted in a woman’s womb?
Why does an egg implanted in a womb DOES have an interest in life, but one that is kept aside (maybe it’s part of an IVF cycle) doesn’t?
As it also can develop into a born independent breathing/eating baby?
If its lying deep frozen, with the same “interest in life” it is not infringing on anybody’s right to their body. But in a woman it is. She is legally responsibly for letting it develop into a born, breathing baby when it’s in her womb, but when it’s part of an IVF cycle nobody is responsible?
Do you not feel there’s a discrepancy here? Or that the “interest in life” needs to be more clarified? #####
Well IVF do have the capacity to develop into persons and therefore they do have an interest in living, You’ll note I even said in my previous post “It does technically have the capacity to become a person” i.e. it has an interest in living.
But I was also saying that an interest in living does not override the absolute human right to refuse medical treatment. Basically I am agreeing with the OP on this one. Even if the intrusion is minimal e.g. forcing me to give a little bit of blood to save someone’s life, it does not matter. They have an interest in living and I have a right to refuse to undergo medical treatment.
However, I think we have all agreed that the interest in living does not trump the right to refuse medical treatment so I think the issue is settled. Unless of course you wish to play the devil’s advocate.
#### My bad RE court.
RE your comment on the court ruling, yes that’s how I read it too, they will not make a statement on the human rights issue and see it as a political issue. Human Rights Watch actually has, and commented the Human Rights Act according to them cannot be read to apply to z/e/f. Let’s leave that for now though before the thread length explodes #####
Well I actually agree that rights cannot apply to the unborn unless they are expressly accounted for in the text. However, the absence of rights for the unborn does not mean a state cannot within its own discretionary power define criminal offenses which prohibit its killing.
There are “feticide” or “fetal homicide” laws in many US states; they just don’t apply specifically to abortion in the first and second trimester because women currently have a Constitutional right recognized via Roe v Wade to abort in that time frame which automatically trumps the state’s power to define criminal offenses.
But you’re right this thread length is getting long so maybe we should leave this issue for another time. 🙂
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August 24, 2012 at 10:02 am
Andrew said, “A pure pro-choice position is not supported or weakened by “greater good” arguments. . . I am sure that even if pro-choice laws in a given society did not result in the greatest good for the greatest number you would continue to be pro-choice? Or am I mistaken?”
Two things here, Andrew: First, “the greatest good for the greatest number is not the same as “the greater good.” Sometimes “the lesser good for the greatest number” (as our Interstate system) or the “greatest good for the lesser number” (as our school breakfast program) is the “greater good.”
Second, if abortion were not the greater good, I would not favor it. I personally see it as the greater good because I know that anyone who understands the need to nurture a child well needs the power to determine just how many children he or she will nurture. This is a vital element for a healthy society. The alternative is the Ted Bundy scenario, so I ask you, which is the greater good, that one die and sixty-one live or that one live and sixty-one die?
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August 24, 2012 at 7:59 pm
I already agreed that one being killed and sixty one living is the “greater good” but I am also pointing out that this calculation does not make it morally imperative to act unless you happen to be a consequentialist utilitarian.
You bring up a couple of interesting examples e.g. the school breakfast program. But the school breakfast program is arguably a justifiable means to assist the needy as I’m sure most people would agree. Besides I am not arguing that we never act based on a “greater good” argument but rather that we are not truly consequenialist utilitarian so we do not let the “greater good” decide what is morally imperative until we have determined the justifiability of the means.
Harvesting organs is an unjustifiable means to assist those who need transplants despite it being for the “greater good”. One being killed and five living… however, who here believes that its morally imperative to kill a homeless person to achieve that end? If you believe that then I accept that you are consistent.
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August 24, 2012 at 8:02 pm
Btw just to confirm are you admitting that you would advocate denying women the right to choose if it were not for the greater good in a given society?
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August 25, 2012 at 10:07 am
Potentially, I am a fascist, Andrew. Potentially, I am also the President of the United States. What I am– or you are– actually is what counts.
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August 25, 2012 at 7:11 pm
Well I am pro-life regardless of what outcomes it will produce for society. My view on abortion is not dependent on the social context. I will never be pro-abortion nor will I be pro-choice to the extent you are.
Am I willing to do all that is necessary to save 61 lives? No, I am not.
Are you willing to do all that is necessary to save 5 lives?
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August 26, 2012 at 9:41 am
Andrew, for over two decades, I committed over 600 hours of my personal unpaid time and 8% of my gross annual income to work one-on-one with children whose parents couldn’t or wouldn’t care well enough for them. I did my best, and some of them have gone on to live reasonably happy lives (“happy” in the Socratic sense), and some of them haven’t.
I will never “save” a life; that’s what so-called “pro-lifers” want to do. the best I can do is let someone else know that there are other ways to live.
So, why are you “pro-life” if you don’t care for human life, but only about it?
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August 25, 2012 at 7:30 pm
Do I agree that pro-choice laws are a “greater good” in the United States compared to pro-life laws? Yes, I do. But that does not necessarily justify all abortions.
I think that the best argument for pro-choicers is bodily integrity but it ultimately becomes a value judgement. I have accepted that no one can extend their life by infringing on someone else’s right to refuse medical treatment. The OP is asserting that one cannot extend their life by infringing on bodily integrity in general. This is a different value judgement and perhaps explains why the abortion debate can never be fully resolved. How can the argument be taken any further?
It is a good tactic to rebut any possibility that the unborn could have an interest in living but it is always difficult to pin down a valid moral argument that can deprive them but not deprive those who we generally accept do have an interest in living e.g. newborns.
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August 26, 2012 at 9:47 am
Andrew, I get the sense that you are not a parent. You have the intellectual structure down pat, but it lacks a certain resonance with the reality that abortion is only the one of the considerations to be dealt with when one considers what it takes to raise one’s child well.
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