A while ago on the Abortion.com Facebook page I saw the following comment: “I guess pro-choice people don’t think twice about stabbing a baby in the head … that has taken a breath! Or even twisting their heads off!” It got me thinking: how does one combat this level of ignorance? Then the deeper implication: how can there ever be real dialogue in the abortion debate when such ignorance is so commonplace? The answer, I hope, is that by injecting critical thinking and evidence into a dialogue so lacking in either, I can change that trend.
My name is Heather Cale, and I care about this topic because as a medical student, I want abortion to be treated like any other medical matter: in an evidence-based manner. I consider myself strongly pro-choice, but that alone does not determine the extent of my views. Abortion is investigated as rigorously as any other medical procedure; that means it is my responsibility as a future physician to analyze the data objectively, and not through the lens of my personal views.
So far, most relevant evidence strongly supports continued access to abortion, including that restrictive abortion laws are not associated with lower rates of abortion, but are associated with much higher maternal mortality and morbidity rates. However, not enough research has been conducted in some important areas. For instance, a widely touted JAMA systematic review on fetal pain concluded that fetuses most likely become pain-capable somewhere in the third trimester, but admitted the evidence is limited and inconclusive. Newer evidence indicates it may also incorrectly assume that requirements for pain perception are identical for fetal and adult brains.
Unfortunately, abortion has become so politicized that many on either side either completely disregard any evidence that doesn’t further their own agendas, or even manipulate evidence to fit their beliefs. This attitude is exemplified by organizations like WECARE. Most people are unaware of WECARE, but Priscilla Coleman, its Director, is the author of a large percentage of articles that purport to find negative associations with abortion even where none exist. In 2009, she published a headline-making study purporting to link abortion to “anxiety, mood, and substance abuse disorders.” The study was then thoroughly debunked by UCSF’s Julia Steinberg, who showed that Coleman’s results could not be duplicated, and her methodology, among other egregious errors, failed to control for prior mental health and violence experiences. The journal that published both the original article and its critique even offered a commentary agreeing with the merit of the latter and stating that Coleman’s paper “does not support assertions that abortions led to psychopathology.”
Flawed, debunked, or superseded evidence then becomes perpetuated by professional medical organizations with definitive religiopolitical stances (like the Christian Medical & Dental Associations) in a vicious trickle-down cycle. The CMDA continues to publicize articles incorrectly linking abortion with breast cancer or mental health disorders (Coleman is the author of many) while completely ignoring any opposing evidence that defeats those stances. These studies are also perpetuated in so-called “Crisis Pregnancy Centers,” where workers routinely give pregnant women scientific misinformation in an attempt to dissuade them from choosing to abort. Finally, the spread of misinformation ends with the public and political sphere. That single debunked study by Coleman alone was, according to a piece in the New York Times, “[responsible] for ‘informed consent’ laws in at least eight states.” Is it any wonder, then, that ignorance abounds in the abortion debate? 
Science is not liberal or conservative; it is objective or non-objective, evidence-based or not. Science doesn’t work by deciding the validity of a source based on its conclusion rather than the evidence which supports it, or by manipulating evidence to fit a decided conclusion. I can understand what cements this rigid unwillingness to consider evidence that doesn’t help one’s political cause: the fear of giving up hard-fought-for victories to a political enemy. That fear isn’t just limited to the pro-life side, either.
However, in a debate so riddled with religious fervor and emotional rhetoric, rationality must be the path forward, and that means both sides must at least be willing to recognize evidence that may not aid their “cause.” Here is where I hope to instigate some change: to see abortion treated as a medical procedure with deep-running bioethical considerations rather than a billboard slogan, to see evidence considered on its own merits rather than its political implications. In short, I hope to bring logic back to a debate overrun with emotion, religion, and politics. Wish me luck.
For the much touted 2005 JAMA review on fetal pain indicating it most likely begins in the third trimester: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=201429
For one of multiple related articles indicating that fetal brains may be capable of primitive pain sensation that does not require thalamocortical circuits related to pain perception: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17905181
For some heavier reading detailing the connection between unsafe abortion and maternal morbidity and mortality, try the most recent edition of “Unsafe Abortion: global and regional estimates of the incidence of unsafe abortion and associated mortality in 2008” by the World Health Organization: http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/publications/unsafe_abortion/9789241501118/en/index.html
For more on how rates of abortion are estimated to be comparable in countries where it is legal and illegal, but there are much higher rates of unsafe abortion (and 97% of associated deaths) where it is illegal, see “Induced abortion: estimated rates and trends worldwide.” http://media.mcclatchydc.com/smedia/2007/10/17/13/Chang-Guttmacher_Institute_abortion_report.source.prod_affiliate.91.pdf
For more on the New York Times piece citing the states in which Coleman’s study was used as the basis for informed consent laws: http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/remember-that-study-saying-abortion-makes-you-crazy/
For more on Coleman’s paper in the Journal of Psychiatric Research, Steinberg’s analysis, and the journal’s commentary, see: http://healthland.time.com/2012/03/08/study-linking-abortion-to-mental-health-problems-is-flawed/

August 8, 2013 at 2:48 pm
Very well researched and written, Heather! Unfortunately, when it comes to abortion, the emotional side overrides the rational. This is true simply because the people who consider themselves “pro-life” have underlying emotional problems they cannot deal with constructively. I suggest you take a look at Ernest Becker’s book, “Denial of Death,” to see how their denial of death practically forces them to become pro-lifers.
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August 8, 2013 at 3:03 pm
I have had the experience that some can and some cannot be reasoned with, and you’re unfortunately completely right about many. It is usually clear who is capable of civil discussion and who is not within the first several comments. However, my aim here and in life is to insist on reason. The reason I continue to debate with even pro-lifers who can’t be reasoned with is for the sake of observers; many pro-lifers cannot be convinced, but standing up to them with evidence and an insistence on civility prevents them from dominating the debate and swaying those who just don’t know any better and presume that pro-lifers are speaking from a stance of medical expertise.
Still, I feel it’s important to point out that even pro-choicers can jump to definitive stances prematurely because they are politically convenient. The fetal pain debate is a good example, and one I will be writing about here in more detail soon. Both sides have very definitive stances on whether fetal pain capability is possible at 20 weeks, but the truth is that current evidence isn’t yet strong enough to support a definitive stance on the matter.
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August 19, 2013 at 12:07 pm
If you haven’t yet written your article on fetal pain, you might want to include some scientific information on how later-term abortions are actually performed.
http://www.drhern.com/en/abortion-services/second-trimester-abortion.html
At this particular facility, the fetus is given an injection to stop its heart before the rest of the procedure is completed. It would seem that the ability to feel pain would be moot.
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August 20, 2013 at 12:51 pm
Fetal Pain? With no heart beat?
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February 7, 2014 at 10:25 pm
Sanskrit shluod not be but Tamil ought to be, or OBCs shluod be extended reservations etc. he is called a jalra of dravidians, or a coward.But they are many many ‘cowards’ among TPs. But their voices are not heard in blog world or outside too. It is the caste and religious bigots who hang together. They use the foulest language as seen here against Arul. He uses fair language, against their foul language.Give a thought to this phenomenon. What motivates TPs to hang together and think together! History? Maybe.You cant evade saying there is no such groupism among them. It is an inesacpable reality of reading and knowing the blogs. Read the blog of the commentators here: Vajra, Rajarathnam, Thirumalai Rajan, the usual attackers of Arul. All hindutva blogs. all TPs. One anonymous TP has even hyperlinked his blog here. Have you noticed? Dondu Ragavan’s blog is haven for such people.I am writing all this to you because you somewhat look like a ‘Coward’!
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April 22, 2014 at 7:15 am
Good point. I hadn’t thought about it quite that way. 🙂
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August 21, 2013 at 5:08 pm
I will. Thank you for the input.
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August 8, 2013 at 3:07 pm
Also, thank you! And I have never yet heard of a denial of mortality being a basis of pro-life views. It’s an interesting thought. I will definitely check out the book!
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August 9, 2013 at 9:39 am
Abortion is Murder!!!!
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August 9, 2013 at 10:01 am
And this, Chuck/Charles, is an example of a person who cannot be reasoned with. The entire point of my article is that this debate should be based in reason and civility rather than the common accusations people have been screaming at each other for so long (“It’s a woman’s body!” vs. “It’s murder!”), but clearly you didn’t read it.
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August 9, 2013 at 11:05 am
Abortion is still murder!!
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August 9, 2013 at 11:30 am
Thanks, Mary, for making Heather’s point. Meanwhile, coming back down to earth, I would like to welcome you, Heather, to our cast of bloggers. This is a great piece and it’s exciting to have a new perspective on this page.
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February 7, 2014 at 11:04 pm
This inotomarifn is off the hizool!
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April 2, 2014 at 11:14 am
This is crystal clear. Thanks for taking the time!
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August 8, 2013 at 10:43 pm
Fabulous article.
Tx!
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August 9, 2013 at 10:05 am
Thank you!
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August 8, 2013 at 10:44 pm
I was only able to read about a third of this post so far but I really enjoyed this scholarly post so far.
I’ll get to the rest tomorrow.
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August 9, 2013 at 6:23 am
Great piece!
I’ve found that at a minimum, the CPC program offerings deny women their constitutional right to comprehensive reproductive and sexual health care through emotionally manipulative discourse and misinformation. They deny the well-documented safety and value of abortion, promote abstinence from a heteronormative perspective as the only moral and healthy choice for all unmarried people, use a paternalistic discourse that speaks for both the fetus and the woman, and offers erroneous and misleading information about fetal growth, risks of pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases. Offering misinformation, as they insist on doing, is based on faith and NOT on science. Thanks so much for opening up this important topic.
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August 9, 2013 at 9:51 am
I absolutely agree. What’s worse is that they tend to advertise themselves as either abortion providers or an impartial organization that will refer women for abortions in order to lure them in. They usually fail to disclose the (common) fact that they are being funded by local churches in addition to Title X funding. Many require references from pastors or a history of attendance at a Christian church in order to apply for a staff position! Many are not medically licensed facilities. And, arguably worse than their blatant misinformation, there have been reports of confidentiality violations when staff hounded women and their families about whether they have received an abortion after the women have left the clinic. Yet, from the outside, it is usually impossible to tell whether a “clinic” is a legitimate women’s health center or a CPC.
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August 9, 2013 at 11:33 am
On the other hand – and I’ve written about this – there are some “good” cpcs out there that are very up front about what they do. Indeed, I recall a number of abortion providers who actually worked hand in hand with their local cpc. I just think that to maintain our credibility, we have to acknowledge things like this versus painting a very broad brush. It’s like admitting there are bad abortion doctors.
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August 9, 2013 at 6:30 pm
I’d love to see examples of good CPCs . . .
Is there a list?
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August 9, 2013 at 7:13 pm
I, too, would really be interested in learning about “good” CPCs in order to compare them to the ones the rest of us are familiar with!
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August 12, 2013 at 2:52 pm
Of course there is no list of “good” cpcs. That is such a totally subjective thing. What I can tell you that in certain cities the abortion providers – who do great due diligence – have actually worked with what they consider to be “good” cpcs, i.e., cpcs that are up front about what they do and that actually provide some resources to women. I trust those abortion providers to make those determinations.
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August 19, 2013 at 12:14 pm
Is Voice of Choice still active?
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August 9, 2013 at 6:30 am
Heather, in my research about CPC videos, I came across this article about the ABC fraud
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1251638/
Here’s the opening:
Epidemiology, like any branch of medical science, functions within a social and historical context. That context influences what questions are asked, how they are investigated, and how their conclusions are interpreted, both by researchers and by the public. The international debate over whether abortion increases breast cancer risk, which has been the subject of many studies and much heated controversy in recent decades, became so intensely politicized in the United States that it serves as a particularly stark illustration of how elusive the quest for scientific certainty can be. Although a growing interest in reproductive factors and breast cancer risk developed after the Second World War, it was not until the early 1980s, after induced abortion had been legalized in many countries, that studies began to focus on this specific factor. In the US these were the years following Roe v Wade, when anti-abortionists mounted their counterattack and pro-choice forces were on the defensive. As a result, epidemiologists found themselves at the centre of a debate which had come to symbolize a deepening divide in American culture. This paper traces the history of the scientific investigation of the alleged abortion-breast cancer link, against the backdrop of what was increasingly termed an “epidemic” of breast cancer in the US. That history, in turn, is closely intertwined with the anti-abortion movement’s efforts, following the violence of the early 1990s, to regain respectability through changing its tactics and rhetoric, which included the adoption of the “ABC link” as part of its new “women-centred” strategy.
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August 9, 2013 at 6:57 am
According to your b.s., a miscarriage and monthly cycles (our periods!) would also create a higher risk for breast cancer. Are you saying that we should just breed and not bleed? You can’t fool this one, loony toons.
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August 9, 2013 at 6:58 am
This was to the woman with the poster in the photo, btw.
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August 9, 2013 at 9:39 am
From my reading, Pro Lifers tend to be so Religous they cannot begin to accept science as it decimates every basic tenet they want to believe in. The cognitive dissonance is to great for their Religous brains to accept.
And these people have often been in control of our armed forces. That is a nightmare. People who believe the world is about to end, and have the ability to make their beliefs come true.
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August 9, 2013 at 6:32 pm
ProLifers, from my experience, are basically crazy.
It is impossible to have a discussion with them that involves any science.
Has anyone else had this experience?
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August 9, 2013 at 7:55 pm
Yes. I once attempted to have a very evidence-based debate with one such individual. In response to the link to the Executive Summary on Abortion published by the AMA, he replied with a link to a Catholic online magazine Op-ed piece, as if they were on equal footing, saying “our sources can fight each other all day.” When I insisted that his statement that “at least 85% of women who have abortions become clinically depressed” was wildly inaccurate, with the evidence to back it up, he subtly implied that I myself had had an abortion, because he had “noticed that all the women who deny a link between abortion and depression have had abortions themselves and are trying to make themselves feel ‘okay’ about it.”
Others just spam my article with “Abortion is Murder!” comments, not bothering to respond to anything else. (See above.)
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August 9, 2013 at 9:58 am
You’re right. I will be discussing this in future articles in more depth, but in essence it is not abortion that raises the risk of breast cancer but merely *not being pregnant*. Pregnancy at a relatively young age has been shown to be protective against breast cancer in both humans and rodents; it is not abortion that increases the risk of breast cancer but merely *not being pregnant*. However, pro-life “research” conflates the two. Not all research that might feasibly be used to promote a pro-life argument is pseudoscientific, but I would classify this claim as pseudoscience, since it fails to control for an important variable and seems immune, in certain circles, to superseding evidence (because it is politically convenient).
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August 9, 2013 at 9:46 am
You must be thick. Abortions are the most healthy form of birth control ever.
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August 9, 2013 at 7:59 pm
….I’m just gonna assume you’re being facetious and leave it at that. I can’t even tell if you’re pro-choice or pro-life.
I will note, however, that the presumption that abortion is used as a primary form of birth control is commonplace and absolutely ignorant of the many factors that go into an unwanted pregnancy. If you’re looking for a place to blame for *those*, perhaps you should look to abstinence-only education programs that focus on the failure rates of different forms of birth control rather than teach how to correctly use them, and politicians who long fought OTC and teen availability of the morning-after pill, and groups that oppose birth control coverage without a co-pay.
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September 22, 2013 at 9:04 pm
Hola recien lo dearscgo, lo provare para luego decir como me fue, pero les adelanto que esto de los softwares es muy importante para el desarrollo de los universitarios y no la porqueria de esos ingenieros que ensef1an a lo antiguo, es decir solo teoria
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February 8, 2014 at 6:13 pm
Interesting post Generally I don’t learn article on blogs, hovweer I would like to say that this write-up very pressured me to check out and do so! Your writing style has been amazed me. Thanks, very nice article .
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August 9, 2013 at 10:10 am
And from Laura Bassett, Huffington Post, August 7
“When a woman walked into a state-funded “crisis pregnancy center” in Manassas, Va., this summer and told the counselor she might be pregnant, she was told that condoms don’t actually prevent STDs and that birth control frequently causes hair loss, memory loss, headaches, weight gain, fatal blood clots and breast cancer.
“The first three ingredients in the birth control pill are carcinogens,” the CPC counselor said, adding that she always tries to talk women out of taking it.
The counselor also told the woman that condoms are not effective at preventing pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases because they are “naturally porous.”
“Safe sex is a joke,” she said. “There’s no such thing.”
NARAL Pro-Choice Virginia recorded the exchange, released Wednesday, as part of its undercover investigation into the 58 state-funded “crisis pregnancy centers” in Virginia. The organizations are part of a national network of about 2,500 Christian centers that advertise health and pregnancy services, but do not offer abortions, contraception or prenatal care. Instead, they are intended to talk women out of having abortions and to advocate abstinence until marriage.”
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August 9, 2013 at 11:14 am
What is pain?
If a receptor picks up a signal and there is not cognitive sentience to perceive the signal as pain – how can that be considered pain?
A withdrawal response is not pain.
Withdrawal typically (mostly, there are cortical connections) occurs at a spinal level and is faster than the time it would take for signal to travel up to the neocortex, be processed, and travel back down again.
People forget nerves are not cooper wire. They do not conduct at the speed of light, they conduct at a pace more in the range of a donkey cart. The cortex only works because the interconnections are rather small distances and massively parallel.
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August 9, 2013 at 7:47 pm
You’re absolutely right. Pro-life groups often conflate pain perception with nociception, which is the peripheral reception of a noxious stimulus. A response to a noxious stimulus does not necessarily indicate pain reception, therefore.
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August 9, 2013 at 10:01 pm
All the science is interesting & relevant.
In the end though, I don’t see any alternative to the simple bioethical principle that in order for women to exercise real Personal Autonomy and Self Determination, they must have full control and choice over what happens to their bodies, including Abortion.
I don’t believe this thought should become a platitude.
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August 10, 2013 at 10:17 am
I do agree with you personally on those things. The reason I focus on evidence is that, distilled down to its essence, the abortion debate has been about two sides screaming “It’s a woman’s right to choose what happens to her own body!” vs. “It’s murder!” ever since it began. When I dig deeper, I notice that people on both sides aren’t actually that informed about it. In forums, I’ve noticed pro-choicers respond to pro-lifers’ insistence that, for instance, abortion is linked to depression by saying “It doesn’t matter. It’s still a woman’s choice,” when they SHOULD be calling the first person out on the fact that it isn’t even true. Moreover, since we should be able to have an informed discussion about abortion, I think any attempt by a pro-lifer to actually introduce evidence (even if it’s wrong) rather than just screaming their opinion should be rewarded with actual discussion about the evidence rather than resorting to our own screaming.
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August 19, 2013 at 4:24 pm
Why is the pain issue relevant if the fetus is not even living during an abortion?
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August 9, 2013 at 11:15 am
More about the LIES that are pushed by Christian right GOP
From BY KATIE MCDONOUGH, Salon, 8/7/13
Fetal pain is a lie: How phony science took over the abortion debate
New laws banning abortion after 20 weeks are based on pseudoscience — and real research proves it conclusively
Since Nebraska first jump-started the trend back in 2010, close to a dozen state legislatures across the country have passed laws banning abortion at 20 weeks. Most of these restrictions are given grave-sounding titles like the “Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act,” or some near-identical riff on the words “fetal,” “pain” and “protection.” All of them, no matter what they’re called, rest on the stated premise that a fetus can experience pain at 20 weeks, and that this is a sufficient justification to ban all abortions after this gestational stage.
But “fetal pain” in the popular discourse is a nebulous concept, one that lawmakers like Jodie Laubenberg, Trent Franks and others haven’t much bothered to define or help ground in available medical evidence.
Probably because there really isn’t any. The limited research used to support such claims has been refuted as pseudoscience by both the Journal of the American Medical Association and the British Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. (Not to mention smaller studies from researchers at Harvard University, University College London and elsewhere.)
“We know a lot about embryology [in the field]. The way that a fetus grows and develops hasn’t changed and never will,” Dr. Anne Davis, a second-trimester abortion provider, associate professor of clinical obstetrics and gynecology at Columbia University Medical Center, and consulting medical director at Physicians for Reproductive Health, told Salon. “And what we know in terms of the brain and the nervous system in a fetus is that the part of the brain that perceives pain is not connected to the part of the body that receives pain signals until about 26 weeks from the last menstrual period, which is about 24 weeks from conception.”
Because the neural structures necessary to feel pain have not yet developed, any observable responses to stimuli at this gestational stage — like the fetal “flinching” during an amniocentesis — are reflexive, not experiential. Which is to say, the fetus at 20 weeks can’t actually feel anything at all. Which is to say, the fundamental justification for these laws is a really big, really popular lie
These lies need to be drawn out of the dark recesses of the caves of the draconian antiabortionists and into the light of reason and science.
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August 9, 2013 at 7:27 pm
I will be writing about this in the future, but in fact we do not yet know that a 20 week old fetus is not pain-capable. As I mentioned in the article, the “best evidence” currently used by the pro-choice side is a widely-touted JAMA systematic review, but it 1) assumes thalamocortical pain circuits are necessary to sense pain, and 2) deduced the timeline of development of thalamocortical pain circuits on the development timeline of other thalamocortical circuits, because pain circuits specifically have not yet been studied extensively.
The second journal article I posted (after the JAMA one I just mentioned) does a good job of summarizing the relevance of the subplate in fetal brain architecture, which is metabolically active prior to cortical differentiation and is basically a fetal precursor to the cortex. It shows that the underlying assumption in the JAMA review that requirements for pain perception are identical in fetal vs. adult brains is actually incorrect. But the subplate zone has not been studied in enough detail for us to know when pain perception becomes possible (IF it becomes possible prior to thalamocortical pain circuit development), although it indicates that it *may* occur prior to the third trimester (whereas the JAMA review indicates that fetal pain perception is extremely unlikely prior to the third trimester).
The truth is that we really don’t know with absolute certainty when fetal pain capability begins, although both sides state with absolute certainty a “No” or “Yes” at the 20 week benchmark depending on what is politically convenient.
This is not even to mention the scientific illiteracy muddying this debate, such as the common pro-life mistake of interpreting evidence of nociception (peripheral reception of a noxious stimulus that may result in a recoiling from the stimulus even without “pain”) for pain perception, which is actually a psychological/emotional response associated with nociception, and which requires the development of more advanced structures than are necessary for nociception.
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August 9, 2013 at 2:46 pm
Excellent, Heather! Its always good to actually have science involved (Sara Palin blows off science with a “scieney stuff” line).
In a future post, you might want to address a new argument some folks are raising in support of reducing the time for a legal abortion to anywhere from 8 to 20 weeks: the morning after pill gives women plenty of opportunity to deal with an unwanted pregnancy without having a medical abortion. My “denial” argument was totally ignored.
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August 9, 2013 at 7:44 pm
Thank you, David. I actually do plan to write this article in the near future. I’d like to point out that there actually *is* a secular argument that can be made for abortion bans at 18, 20, or 22 weeks based on brain activity milestones at those time-points (as evidenced by EEG). However, a pre-viability ban should not ever be considered until and unless the following considerations are made:
1) Appropriate exceptions are made, including for mental and physical maternal health as well as life, severe fetal abnormalities, rape, and incest. Politicians in North Dakota recently passed legislation to prevent abortions based on fetal defects, labeling such abortions as a form of discrimination. This is shortsighted and ignorant. A major reason for late term abortions is that many severe abnormalities cannot be detected until after the 20th week. A complicating problem with hypothetical abortion bans with an exception made for severe fetal abnormalities, however, is “where to draw the line.” Many pro-life groups insist that non-lethal disabilities such as Down Syndrome and dwarfism should not be used as a reason to abort; more complicated are diseases that are invariably fatal, but not at a young age if treated (such as Cystic Fibrosis).
2) The Hyde Amendment is overturned. Guttmacher surveys of women who have received abortions show that poorer women are more likely than affluent women to have abortions at a later point in the pregnancy. Creating abortion bans without first addressing this disparity propagates class-based abortion availability–something that is already a big problem in many areas of the country.
Ironically, abortion bans that pro-life groups (and even many pro-choice individuals) would find more reasonable remain unfeasible until they address other problems they have created by recognizing the necessity of exceptions other than for the mother’s life and by making abortion more accessible to all.
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August 10, 2013 at 2:00 pm
Let’s not forget that some women don’t know they’re pregnant until they’re mid point into their pregnancy. No secular argument can be made for forcing a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy at 20 weeks.
I agree that there are the imbalances you mentioned such a economics but there are also social and political injustices (equal pay, child care responsibilities, etc), horrible maternal mortality rates —all in need of correction.
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September 23, 2013 at 4:50 am
Elderly neighbour cold-called 02/11/2012 by Susan Watts of TRINITY, Apartado de Correos 11001, 07010 Mallorca, ofiefrng a35,000 for her 1 week timeshare in Spain, and asking for a3907.50 advance payment by international transfer to an account in Palma for administration fees . Letter was received from Trinity with details of account to which advance payment is to be transferred (IBAN: ES67 0061 0180 6101 0605 0119, SWIFT: BMARES2M), but no description of service to be supplied or Terms and Conditions. Neighbour has been target of multiple Timeshare scams in the past, including one by KPK Marketing, Kensington High Street, London. Interesting to note the UK contact number for Trinity is identical to the one used by KPK Marketing: 0845 303 2794. Trinity is obviously operating a Timeshare resale scam specifically designed and targeted at the elderly. Makes me feel sick!
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August 10, 2013 at 2:20 pm
One more comment about Down Syndrome (DS)–not every woman who discovers that her fetus has DS will want to continue the pregnancy. No woman should be obligated to such a burden unless she so chooses.
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August 16, 2013 at 6:23 am
Exactly,,,no one has the right to force a woman to carry a pregnancy to term, just like no one has the right to tell that woman she should give birth to a child with DS unless she CHOOSES and yes a child with DS can be a burden, we raised a profoundly deaf son and he was only deaf he had no other problems but it has been a challenge so i kinda have a glimpse as to what it may of been like to raise a child with a handicap, you see the world through different eyes. Raising a child is daunting, raising a child with a handicap is not for the everyone…sorry.
..WE cannot lose sight of the fact that it is still and always will be a CHOICE to carry or terminate, sorry but none of the science, while it is fascinating, matters when it comes down to the fact, that it is my body and my choice, and if I choose to terminate my pregnancy I should be able to always have access to a safe legal medical procedure…and of course access to birth control…
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August 20, 2013 at 12:53 pm
Why doesn’t the GOP understand your point?
They will never win another election again from what I am seeing on TV.
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February 8, 2014 at 12:31 am
That’s a quwit-ickted answer to a difficult question
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August 10, 2013 at 6:49 pm
Why are prolifers almost always Christian zealots?
Why are they always dumber on average than a prochoicer?
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August 11, 2013 at 7:30 am
I found the time article particularly interesting.
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February 8, 2014 at 9:20 pm
ம ட ட ள அர ள க க மறந த ர ந த ர ந த ல ஞ பகபட த தறத த க க .It is better to keep your mouth shut and let oterhs think you are a fool rather than opening it clearing all doubts.
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August 11, 2013 at 3:31 pm
Heather, to save you the time (enjoyable and profitably spent though it would be), “Denial of Death” explores why people are willing sometimes to die, although we (from about age 2) are aware all our lives that we don’t want to have everything end with death. We hate it, we fear it, and if we allow ourselves to obsess about it, it paralyzes us. Becker (who was one of the GI’s who discovered Dachau) says that we will do anything to avoid having to face it, including religion, philosophy and (when those don’t work) repression.
However, repression doesn’t work. We try to bottle it up, but it boils over, and we act out neurotically. We try to find a way to transcend it by becoming a hero. Since a hero is someone who has paid the price society specifies, a person who risks his life according to society’s norms will live on in memory.
To extrapolate from what Becker says, so-called “pro-lifers” show that they have a problem in that while they claim to value human life, they stop at the delivery room door– in fact, they express “care for human life” during the only stage at which they can do NOTHING for it– not protect it from drugs, smoking, malnutrition, maternal stressors, etc. But they call themselves “heroes for the unborn.”
What they are really doing is trying to sell themselves as heroes to society in order to deal with the problems presented by their fear of their own inevitable cessation, their disappearance into the great dark tide of nothingness to which all mortals depart. While they claim to be religious, they are not sufficiently strong of faith to believe they will gain eternal life.
They are very, very emotionally needy people, and anti-abortionism is their dysfunctional twelve-step program. I did a monograph on their condition, “aborticentrism,” a number of years ago, but it went nowhere.
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August 16, 2013 at 6:38 am
Fascinating…..I always try to see both sides of story, try to empathize with people’s feelings and thoughts as to why they act and think the way the do…but for the life of me could never put myself in the shoes of a pro-lifer…people who live with such cognitive dissonance in their lives, now I know why…also might be because I am an atheist and when I die I am dead…i have no problem with death, it’s gonna happen, later rather that sooner I hope…worm food is what I will be..
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August 12, 2013 at 2:15 pm
More evidence the GOP is completely disconnected with the majority of society . . .
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August 12, 2013 at 2:55 pm
Don’t forget that there are some Democratic pro-lifers as well…
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August 21, 2013 at 5:37 pm
As well as some pro-choice Republicans!
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August 17, 2013 at 3:39 pm
Christians don’t believe in science.
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August 23, 2013 at 11:19 am
Christians have a long history of suppressing science.
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September 10, 2013 at 9:21 am
First impression of Unity interface = sucks However, I’ve just downloaded 12.04 and am determined to have another look at it, but in light of your suggestion I might check Mint first. I’m also going to have a look at a couple of other distros (Suggestions welcome) C
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February 8, 2014 at 3:41 am
Wow! Talk about a posting knckiong my socks off!
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October 6, 2013 at 2:23 am
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October 30, 2013 at 7:02 pm
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February 8, 2014 at 6:01 pm
You made some really good ptonis there. I looked on the web for additional information about the issue and found most individuals will go along with your views on this site.
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April 23, 2014 at 8:17 am
Yeah that’s what I’m talking about baby–nice work!
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November 8, 2013 at 6:56 am
I dont understand by what you mean with science. Science says you are killing a human being.
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November 8, 2013 at 3:36 pm
No, Linda. Science says a fetus is a POTENTIAL human being. A fetus can grow up to be a Bobby Darin or a Ted Bundy; it depends on how well it is nurtured from conception to adulthood and sometimes beyond. How would you feel about insisting some woman go to term with a pregnancy and then see the child so neglected and/or abused in life that he grows up to kill 65 women, like Ted Bundy did? How do you feel about those 65 victims? How do you suppose their parents feel?
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