We are very fortunate to have Ms. Heather Cale join our team of bloggers. She is clearly an intelligent young woman who cares a lot about reproductive health issues. And her research is not only impeccable but exhaustive.
Last week she wrote about “late term abortions” from a generally scientific point of view. She talked about brain waves and all of that other stuff that some people really get into. The idea, of course, is to try to determine when the fetus becomes “human” or exhibit human traits, like responding to pain.
I will be the first to admit that I glazed over a lot of the stuff that Heather wrote about because, to be honest, much of it was just way over my head. And, I’m just not sure how relevant it all is. This is not to criticize this well written piece but for many, many people – especially those women who have late term abortions – issues like when the cerebral cortex is developed are just irrelevant.
I’m reminded of a woman I met years ago at an abortion facility in Michigan. At the time, I was with the National Coalition of Abortion Providers and I was touring some clinics for a few days. Always interested in getting the real-life perspective of a women sitting in that waiting room, I asked the clinic staff if I could accompany one of the women and the woman agreed. She was 22 weeks pregnant.
After filling out paperwork, we went into a room to get an ultrasound. The technician rubbed her stomach with jelly, turned the machine on and suddenly you could see the fetus on the screen. The woman’s first response was “is that my baby?” I was flabbergasted. Note she did not use the word “fetus.” To her, it was a baby. The technician said that was her baby and then started pointing out the head and other parts of the body. The patient could not take her eyes away from the screen. I was frozen and practically in tears, but the women never showed any emotion and just asked several questions about her baby.
Then the technician asked her if she wanted to continue to process and the woman without hesitation said she did. As if she thought she needed to explain, she told us that she had three children already and could not possibly imagine having another one. “I gotta think about the children I have already,” she added. I asked her why she had waited so long and she explained that she could not get the money right away, the irony being that the cost of an abortion increases as the fetus develops. Of course, if there was no such thing as the “Hyde Amendment,” then this woman would have been able to use her Medicaid card to get an earlier abortion. Don’t get me started on that issue…
What was interesting to me was that this never asked if the fetus would feel pain, never asked about its cognitive functions, brain waves and all of that other scientific stuff. In her eyes and mind, she was carrying a baby, pure and simple and she had to think of the real-world consequences of giving birth to that baby.
The science of this issue is very interesting, but that debate will never end. Meanwhile, we just have to continue to insure that late term abortions continue to be available to women like the one I met in a Michigan abortion clinic.


September 8, 2013 at 3:25 pm
Reblogged this on The Last Abortion Clinic and commented:
JWHO does procedures up to 16 weeks so they DO NOT perform late term abortions. However, access to this care is an important issue.
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September 10, 2013 at 11:11 am
LAC, you do raise an interesting question: what exactly is a “late term abortion?” I know the pro-choicers got into a crapload of trouble years ago on the “partial birth” issue when they could not come up with one definition of “late term abortion.”
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September 10, 2013 at 11:36 am
I think it’s a question we need to tackle because when you are talking about procedures past 24 weeks or so those are generally for very specific reasons. I think we have to stop allowing forced birthers to control the narrative.
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September 9, 2013 at 8:20 am
Pat …I think women (and I speak for myself) as well…when a woman becomes pregnant with an unwanted pregnancy… they don’t think …”I’m pregnant with a (embryo…or…fetus!!!…) They know they are pregnant with a “BABY”!! No question… if they do “nothing” in several months they are having a “BABY”!! She knows all the ramifications that come with that!! She knows what she “has to do” to prevent that unwanted pregnancy from coming to an end…to deliver a BABY!!
It may have been “43” years since I was faced with the decision of whether or not to continue and unwanted pregnancy…I thought of every thing that an unwanted pregnancy would do to “MY LIFE”!! Never did I think of what the pregnancy would “FEEL”!! My only concern was that I find someone to abort my pregnancy safely …NOT because of what the “baby” would feel BUT…what an ILLEGAL ABORTION would do to ME!! Would I be OK before…during… and… after!! I think that is what women think about today even though we have all this new technology…the bottom line is…that is what we care about!!
Perhaps we/I compartmentalize things to “survive” a horrible situation…but I think it is a reality!! The religious right might think if they give us all this information it will change our mind…in reality… I don’t think it does!! But, what I do think it does… if a woman allows all of that information to come into her decision what it may do is somehow add to her sadness after the procedure!!
Because…yes I do think women have some sadness afterward…I know I did!! NOT because I was sorry I had the abortion…but because I had NOT been careful!! So did I experience some sadness YES…Am I sorry NEVER!! I know the decision that I made… at that time… was the right decision for me and you can never look back and say “what if”!! You can only look back and know that you made the right decision…at the right time in your life!!
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September 10, 2013 at 11:13 am
Thanks, Lorraine, for sharing your story again. I know you worked in a clinic for many years. Do you recall any patients asking if the fetus/baby would feel pain? Surely there must have been some….and, if they did, what did you say?
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September 28, 2013 at 4:03 am
I am absolutely disgusted and horrified by the selfishness of humanity these days. I don’t view abortion as a religious issue. I view it as a human rights issue. I understand the arguments about abortion in the early stages but late term abortions?! That I can’t even believe is being argued. I was born 6 weeks premature. Did I suddenly begin to feel pain and become a human the moment I was born? If you think that, you are the idiot not me.
There is no difference between a child before it is born or after it is born other than the child being able to breathe on it’s own. And if you think that is the definition of humanity then do you also think that a person on oxygen or a respirator is no longer human?
I read through the Abortion.com page and was also disgusted by the comments about Pro-Lifers being compared to Nazis. I find that quite ironic considering the Nazi agenda was one of eugenics. They believed that they had the right to exterminate those who they believed weren’t human and they had and still have to this day just as many arguments to support their theories as you do about unborn babies, trust me. Look up their arguments. They sound quite similar to your own when it comes to how they felt about the mentally handicapped.
What worries me is the slippery slope this issue has created. It began about birth control and when that was accepted, it led to early term abortions and when that was widely accepted, it led to late term. (I’m not against birth control or early term abortions in some cases where the mother is in danger but the line has to be drawn somewhere)
Considering you are stating that whether or not the child feels pain isn’t the issue but rather what is convenient or “right” for the mother, when then does it end? If the child was born before the mother could abort it, then what? Killing the child after it’s born? “No of course not!” I’m sure you’re saying rolling your eyes but why not? How is the child any different than it was a minute earlier? “She would give the child up for adoption of course”, I’m sure you are saying shaking your head but if that’s the case, why didn’t she think of that before the child was born? Because the pain she would experience giving birth to that child so that another couple could experience the joy of having a child? Obviously that is more important than the pain the child would feel dying in the womb. It makes me sick that adoption isn’t even considered an option in so many cases.
One more thing before I allow myself to calm down. It also makes me sick that Pro-Lifers are called “Women Haters” Late term abortion is NOT about women’s rights, it is about the rights of the child and people who believe that a child is no less human a minute, a week or a month before it’s born are NOT idiots, uneducated or women haters. I have seen far more hate spewed by you so called Pro-Choicers on this site than by any Pro-Lifer I have ever heard. I am done. It won’t surprise me in the least if this post is deleted but if it is, there will be more than enough people who will have seen it before it is to hopefully get some people thinking.
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September 28, 2013 at 6:11 am
Anonymous ….If you are addressing anything I said…I never talked about late term (6wks before term!) pregnancies! The only time anyone terminates a pregnancy that late is when the life of the mother is in danger andthe sonograms or other test run determine that the fetus will NOT survive! Because of some horrific birth defects or some other medical condition! So just let me clarify ….you stated that in an early abortion in case of the women’ s health/life you were NOT against an abortion! Answer this question for me…*** What if at 7.5 months of pregnancy the woman presents with a BP that is through the roof…all test indicate that she must be delivered now… because all attempts to get her BP down have failed…all indications show that the fetus is NOT viable…her husbands choice take the fetus and save her life (it is the fetus that is “killing her”!) or leave the fetus and a stroke is inevitable….her death is probable!! They also have 2 children at home that would be left without a mother!! Would you make the very difficult decision to save their Mommy or NOT? Believe it or NOT families are faced with this horrible…heart-breaking decision every day!! Women just don’t wake up at 7.5 months of pregnancy and decide that “I just don’t want to be pregnant anymore!!”
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September 28, 2013 at 11:53 am
Uh is this not a blog about a woman who terminated a late term pregnancy because she just didn’t want another baby? Her life was not in danger. She did it for purely selfish reasons. She could have given the child up for adoption but all she cared about was herself.
You ask me what a mother should do if her life is in danger in late term pregnancy? Well why not give birth to the child by C section and put it in an incubator and give it a chance at survival? Why “Abort” a baby that at least has a chance at life just because the “Mother” (And I use that term lightly) would rather it die than give it a chance at survival and give another woman who actually wants to be a mother a chance to be one?
Secondly, what would you do if both you and your newborn baby were in a fire? and your choices were to either try to save your baby even if it meant both of you might die or save yourself? Is the life of the mother more important than the life of the baby? I would die to protect my children but sadly, the woman in this blog and you as well sadly, stated that the pain or death of the baby didn’t even cross your minds and that most women probably still put themselves first and don’t think about the baby. That is a horrifying thought to me :’-(
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October 6, 2013 at 6:52 am
The way you describe a woman “killing” her born child is sickening yet in say the past “15” years people like Andrea Yates (who professes along with her husband to be “very” religious) did that very thing she killed all of her born children (opps!! excuse me she didn’t finish the baby off just crippled him for life….along with retardation!!) WHY!?!? Because “God” told her too!! She could no longer deal with “home schooling & Mommy-hood) perhaps those little children would have been better off than the death she chose for them!! A woman having an abortion of an un-BORN “child” and a woman MURDERING her born children are NO comparison….one is legal and the my friend is HORRIFIC!!
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October 7, 2013 at 11:36 pm
Ok how did we get back to talking about Christians? I never said I was a Christian. I didn’t say I wasn’t either but I find it interesting that it always comes back to bashing Christians with you people. Someone who has schizophrenia or delusions and thinks God is talking to them is hardly on the same level as someone who is just plain selfish and only cares about themselves. And I’m sorry but just because something is legal doesn’t make it right. Slavery was once legal. In other countries it is legal to kill women. Looking at the world right now including the American government, it is hard to take what they would consider “legal” seriously anyway. The system is broken and so is morality whether you are religious or not. People of all religions and non religions alike are killing each other for selfish reasons and abortion is no different. And it’s very convenient that my post with the questions I wanted answered was deleted. Shows you have no leg to stand on but I didn’t expect any different. Go back to bashing Christians. It’s obviously all you’ve got.
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October 7, 2013 at 11:43 pm
Ooops sorry. I guess my other post with the questions was in response to another post and wasn’t deleted. Sorry about that
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September 28, 2013 at 1:55 pm
From Auntie Adam, Firedoglake
I must admit I have always had a hard time with much of the “pro-life” logic and explanations.
Abortions have to be made illegal because human life is sacred and must be protected from the moment of conception. OK, this woman is going to die if she stays pregnant and tries to carry this child which probably won’t survive either. Can she have an abortion which will save her life and give her the chance to have another child she can carry? Absolutely not. The child has to be given a chance, no matter what. Human life is sacred. Obvious conclusion: The pregnant woman is not human, but the fetus is. The ability to bear children removes humanity and human rights.
Human life is sacred. That’s why we need the death penalty. Is this an oxymoron? Or do you give up your humanity if you do something the right-to-lifers don’t like?
Human life is sacred. ”Those guys” killed some of “our people”. We need to go to war and kill all of them for it. Again obviously, “our people” are human (note the use of the word “people”) and “those guys” aren’t human. Otherwise, we couldn’t go kill “those guys” because human life is sacred, right?
I guess, whether you’re referring to fetuses, felons or foreigners, whether human life is sacred or not depends entirely on your definition of human. I wonder how many pregnant, or potentially pregnant, women know the anti-choice people think they’re not human?
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September 28, 2013 at 6:08 pm
Well I personally don’t think we should be out killing “those guys” either and as for the death penalty, I think in certain cases such as serial killers and child killers (wow that opens a new can of worms doesn’t it? Will explain in a moment) The Death penalty is warranted.
As for Child killers, Here we have one of the biggest hypocrisies in history. Children more than ever are supposedly sacred to the majority of the population when it comes to the increasing murders and sexual horrors committed against them. When someone molests or murders a child, they are considered a monster and are either ostracized, given substantial time in prison or the death penalty depending on the situation. When a mother or anyone else kills a child right after birth, that person is considered a murderer. In fact in the Scott Peterson case, he killed both the mother and the unborn child and was charged with both murders. Considering abortion is legal should they have been legally allowed to charge him with the murder if she and the abortion doctor would have been legally allowed to do the same thing?
Because people have been brainwashed these days to consider a baby that is fully human in every way other than being outside of the mother’s body “Not human”, they have decided who is and who is not human.
In other countries, it is the law that women or other groups are not considered as human as others. That is their perception as the Nazi’s perception is that those of other races other than white, homosexuals and those with mental handicaps are not human. Why are they wrong and you are right? And if you do find them human, what is the difference between them and an unborn child?
Answer this for me. Is a person on a respirator or oxygen or a person who has severe mental handicaps and completely depends on the help of another person to survive human in your opinion? It drives me crazy when Pro-Choicers when faced with difficult questions resort to painting all Pro-Lifers with a broad brush by saying we are all religious extremists who believe in war and don’t believe women are human. That’s Nazi propaganda and the same thing used against the Jews. Deal with the issues not trying to create hate against a group of people who’s only goal for the most part is to save the lives of children.
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September 28, 2013 at 6:20 pm
Here’s the questions I would like answered
1. Do you consider someone on a respirator or on oxygen human?
2. Do you consider someone with mental or physical handicaps who rely on another person to survive human?
(If yes to 1 or 2, explain how they are different from an unborn child)
3. If a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy because of reasons such as no money to raise it or not wanting to give up her freedom, should the father be allowed to order an abortion to take place if he doesn’t want to give up his freedom or if he can’t afford child support? Or should he be allowed to get out of paying child support if it goes against his human rights to be forced to pay child support for a child he doesn’t want? Or is the mother more human than the father and has more rights? Explain please 🙂
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February 9, 2014 at 6:09 am
it is something God indtneed , I will accept that he did not mean to say the rape itself was indtneed, but he at least means that the pregnancy should continue and it is god’s intention that a child be born. Is it possible to extend this to say that every time a child or mother, or both, die in the process that this is also God’s intention? That all those in impoverished countries with very high mortality rates are also but you have heard this before: how is it possible to know what is an intention, an accident, bad luck etc.?Should a woman be forced to suffer a horrible memory for nine months, surely there are chemical means morning after pills that could be used as a preventive measure. Or, are women simply supposed to be baby factories, a life support system for the womb.For Henry the skeptic, a search tells me a fetus is from 8 weeks after conception. One would hope any termination/prevention would be long before this. A valid question but a diversion from the topic and an another excuse to attack the evil doer who fails to accept my belief system .
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September 9, 2013 at 9:38 pm
It so sad! People know it’s a baby but that doesn’t matter to them. It is legal to kill this baby so it must be okay. Right? These people getting these abortions would probably kill their born children, if they became an inconvenience and if it were legal of course. It also helps if you have a doctor telling you they will feel no pain and that it’s the “compassionate thing to do. Welcome to our Brave New World.
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September 10, 2013 at 8:31 am
Very ignorant comment.
1) All educated people can read the dictionary and understand the definition of a baby. A fertilized egg is not a baby.
2) Absurd misinformation that people would probably kill their born babies. Sadly, most people in the US that have killed their own born babies are Christians.
3) Taking away women’s civil liberties could be associated with a Brave New World, not the opposite as you suggest.
Anthonette,
Is Abortion ever OK in your perspective?
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September 10, 2013 at 9:34 am
A above sounds like a right wing lunatic.
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September 10, 2013 at 11:16 am
Wow, Anthonette, that’s a pretty harsh statement. I do appreciate your chiming in on this issue and encourage you do so in the future. But I just need to tell you that I know MANY women who have had abortions in the past and as far as I recall NONE of them have killed their born children. I’d have to check on that but I dont think they’ve done that yet. And I would suggest you are wrong when you say the “baby” does not matter to the women. They matter greatly. That is why the decision to have an abortion is a very difficult and sad one. Read Lorraine’s comments above. Look forward to having a good conversation about this difficult issue!
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September 10, 2013 at 1:37 pm
Apparently you need to take an English Reading Comprehension course since the one in middle school did not worked, no one here is talking about killing children who are already born… by the way have you seen the news about Christian parents leaving their already living children to die instead of taking them to a doctor because they decided to “pray the illness away”? So I guess that sounds more compassionate to you than a woman thinking that she cant carry a pregnancy to term because the effect on her health and the effect on the children she already has but I guess is easier to judge when you have never been in that situation.
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September 11, 2013 at 7:52 am
Of coarse anthonette does bother to reply or support the ridiculous comment. Typical know nothing anti choicer .
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September 11, 2013 at 8:10 pm
wow! i’m really embarrassed for you!
i am an anti and a religious nut.
in 1984, my gf and i made a choice that it took me 25 years to come to terms with.
5 weeks after that, i lost my 28 month old son.
15 years later, my daughter was born at 21 1/2 weeks gestation and didn’t survive.
are you actually saying that i would have killed my born children????
do you have any idea how triggering and hurtful your words are?
for a quarter of a century, i was unable to give the best of myself to those that i loved, to myself, or to my god.
your words seem to indicate that you actually WANT that torment for others.
to have put myself through that for so long was sick. but to want it for someone else is evil!
people who choose to abort are no less loving or devoted as parents than those who don’t.
i am an anti, but i am disgusted by tactics employed by the anti-choice movement, including politicos that cut social services that would help low income families care for their children as well as possibly being a catalyst that could help them to choose to have their babies. those same legislators also cut funding so desperately needed for seniors and the disabled.
by your logic, i could state that you would starve and neglect to death children, seniors and the handicapped.
THAT is pretty damn sad.
it’s really easy to sit on your caboose and point fingers. offering help to those in need is sometimes a challenge. but i somehow doubt that it is a challenge that you are up to.
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September 12, 2013 at 7:13 pm
Anthonette, if we were truly in “our Brave New World” abortion would be an antiquated and altogether obsolete procedure given children were hatched, not sexually reproduced, in Huxley’s dystopian future.
Fortunately, as opposed to those living in The World State as depicted in the novel, we do not live under a government which eliminated the family, considers solitude and reflection tantamount to aimlessly walking in circles, requires of its members consistent and polygamous casual sex, and subliminally teaches all peoples to consume Soma as part of some quasi religious trip bringing new meaning to Marx’s observation that religion is an opiate.
In essence and as opposed to Huxley’s vision, we in the USA actually have some degree of choice as it relates to marriage, religion, sex, and if, when, and how we have children. If you want to debate whether or not our current class and economic structures are similar to the Brave New World’s or not, I’d love to explore that as Huxley, though somewhat exaggerated, practically nails our society’s proclivity for conspicuous consumption, rigid class structure–which we aren’t supposed to acknowledge by the way, and Skinner like programmed adoration for disposable mass produced impedimenta; however, I’ll try to stay on topic.
Unfortunately for many of us, most people against abortion have more in common with the totalitarian designers/elites of Brave New Worlds’s World State than they care to admit. Given their inclination to control how and when people reproduce (against abortion and other forms of birth control), who they marry (against any union that is not man and woman), what religion they follow (fundamental Christianity obviously), and what economic system is practiced (unregulated laissez-faire capitalism) it occurs to me that folks such as yourself are more inclined toward Brave New Worldism than those of us who support abortion specifically and human rights more generally.
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September 11, 2013 at 5:41 am
Anthonette …”.These people getting these abortions would probably kill their born children, if they became an inconvenience …” Seems to me that the people that you hear about “killing” babies are the ones that did NOT have an abortion! Then delivered them and then threw the baby in the dumpster or the trash can…to afraid to tell their “bible thumping” parents they are pregnant…!!
What “kills” me when ya’ll are talking about “precious life” is that it is “always” about the “unborn”…NEVER the “born”!! Ya’ll scream about life being “so” precious… but when it comes to the “life” of someone on “death row”…the same people are demanding that someone be “put to death”!! I just can’t understand it…because as a Christian “you” are NOT suppose to pass “judgement” on someone!! So then the way I see it… the life on death row is “as precious” as the “unborn?? It doesn’t matter that he went into the elementary school and murdered 20 kindergartener’s!! Does it?
Now…for the record… I need to state that my “personal belief” is that until that fetus is “born” it does NOT have any “rights”!! NOT until it HAS BEEN BORN…NOT until it has TAKEN A BREATH!!!
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September 11, 2013 at 8:39 pm
that is an excellent point about the value of the life of someone on death row, lorriepoo!
if i might add, the lives of the women involved as well as the lives of doctors, nurses, escorts and any other staffers are also valuable.
and just because we don’t see on the news everyday that another abortion provider has been killed doesn’t mean that the anti-abortion terrorism isn’t happening.
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February 10, 2014 at 9:20 am
Exodus 21:16 Anyone who kidnaps atohner and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death. Deuteronomy 22:25–2725 “But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. Perhaps if we would have hung a few slave traders in the 17th century we could have avoided the civil war which cost the lives of 600,000 young Americans.And just maybe if we would execute a few convicted rapists we would spare thousands of women the horrible trauma of rape. But libs say kill the kid and rehabilatate the rapist. The moral status of the sexual act that produced a pregnancy has no bearing on the humanity of the unborn child. Kill the rapist and welcome the kid into the world.
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September 12, 2013 at 1:29 pm
I refused to think of it as anything but a pregnancy until l I was past the point of miscarriage and past the point of my earlier still birth (around 24/25 weeks), even then I had difficulty bonding with the pregnancy that would become my daughter. Combine a hysterical, lonely stillbirth when I was a teen and my knowledge now as a midwife that pregnancy is a fraught with risk and danger for both mother and fetus, it made for a very disconnected pregnancy. I couldn’t completely relax until my pregnancies 28 week scan and it showed my pregnancy was healthy prepossessing and there were no detectable abnormality.
Also when midwifing my clients, I always ask them how they feel and then how she feels the pregnancy is doing? This keeps her in the mindset that she is the primary patient I am caring for that her needs are far more complex and important than the fetus’ growing inside her because she is it’s life support system. By voicing the question that way I get more candid, honest and comprehensive answers about her mental and physical and the stresses her pregnancy is under.
A Pro-Choice Midwife
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September 12, 2013 at 6:05 pm
Oubli…my hats off to you!! Women need more “pro-choice” midwives taking care of them and seeing their pregnancy through to the end…always being mindful the she is pt. #1!! Thank you for your work!!
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September 27, 2013 at 8:10 pm
That you make it sound so simple with all your display even so come across this trouble for being really something which I really believe I’d personally certainly not understand. It sort of feels also tricky and great for me. We’re looking forward on your own future send, I’m going to try to find the hang on than me!
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October 24, 2013 at 9:10 pm
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February 8, 2014 at 2:25 am
judy cummings – Hi April I am just seneig these photos of yours for the first time. Bill and I are spending 3 weeks in the sunny room on the top floor of Kristen and Giff’s house. It is not quite so sunny now a days as it was when you were here not so long ago, but the room is toasty warm and very comfortable. We sort of feel as if we are in a tree house with all the windows whereby we can look out into the trees Most of the furniture in this room was ours, so we feel especially at home up in this treehouse .. Wish we could have come for the shower, but it was too close to our already planned trip to Mississippi. Happy New Year to you and Eric.
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