There have been a large number of commentaries by individuals who dogmatically state that a women has no right ever to choose and abortion under any circumstance.
Yet when replied to by other individuals, they never respond with any objective reasoning?
To note, every professional, professional organization, and many clergy on the planet, from all the major religions, as far as we could tell from our diligence and vetting, including every right to life group that would respond, agreed with the position that women could end their pregnancy under this circumstance.
So Why do the commenters believe otherwise? I believe we will know by their continued absence of response. But we would be delighted to hear an intelligently formed argument against a women’s choice in this circumstance. No soliloquies or pulpits please, just he facts.
We want to give them the benefit of the doubt, so we ask one of these simple questions again.
Some respond with the same rhetorical gibberish, never answering the hard real world questions posed by so many intelligent and concerned individuals.
It is difficult to understand. It infers that people who harbor these dogmatic beliefs, will not allow their minds to accept the reality of women in need and the difficult choices they may sometimes must make. Instead of educating themselves they withdraw into the catacombs of ancient cliches, and reveal no education into biology, formal logic, ethics, or medicine. The issues are not that complicated. Would one person, one, please respond appropriately. It would be appreciated, as there has yet to be a good response to the very many important issues brought up regarding the women’s right to choose to control her own body.
One simple example I have seed posted, is the women with an anencephalic (a fetus that has had the misfortune of the developmental path that did not create the neurological substrate for brain formation) – In fact many do not even have cranium. They fetuses all die at, around, or before or shortly after birth and never cognate, unless one believes that cognition takes place in the liver (some do, strangely enough). It is extremely sad. These women will not have a successful pregnancy, as a severe anencephalic, has never grown a brain.
So, out of the hundreds of thousands of individuals who have been trained in Obstetrics and women care, NOT one has agreed with the lack of choice for that women to end her pregnancy.
That is intelligent to end these pregnancies early (please see the literature on this point as it is overwhelming without any deviance). As many of these women, if they choose to let the pregnancy continue, end up with hysterotomy, ruptured uterus, hysterectomies and lose child bearing, hemorrhage, infection from bloood transfusion, and even death.
At a minimum, they have gone full term to have a dead baby.
If there is a single person out there which can make an argument to why these women should not have the choice of ending their pregnancy we welcome that point and discussion.
In the absence of that we will conclude that this issue of anencephally is presently a settled discussion.
November 22, 2008 at 7:40 am
You are very wrong, it is a very legal option and will continue to be one.
Women will have the choice to control their bodies. This will always be true.
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January 8, 2009 at 3:21 pm
hi
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good luck
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January 10, 2009 at 4:26 am
hi
6tarvb9cpfrg4fny
good luck
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January 15, 2009 at 1:36 pm
I found myself in the situation of being pregnant and nowhere to turn.I didn’t want
a child nor could I afford one.I chose to go
thru the pregnancy and keep my son after a long,difficult pregnancy. There was no one to go with me to drs. appointments nor were
there anyone to drive me the 50 miles to my
dr. when I went into labor. I drove myself in
hard labor with contractions every 2 minutes
until I knew I was not going to make it to the hospital. I had went through being homeless not able to eat very well and depression. I chose not to abort my son because a babys heartbeat starts after 3 weeks of conception.By the end of 6 weeks a babys heart is fully formed.I believe that abortion is murdering a child. If a woman has a baby then smothers it or throws it against the wall and the child dies isn’t that murder?Why would anyone let of all a dr. pull her child apart with a “vacumm? If I can go thru what I went thru and still come out ok then anyone can.
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January 16, 2009 at 1:29 am
I’ll submit my answer for your consideration.
Women who face the tragic circumstances should not be able to abort an anencephalic fetus because that fetus has a right to his or her own life that is equal to the mother’s right to her own life (conception has been successfully achieved).
I am not very familiar with anencephaly, are the complications you listed of carrying this type of pregnancy to term higher than the risks of carrying a normal pregnancy to term, and if so by how much? I would like to see the literature, I did a few different Google searches, but I was unable to come up with anything that talked about significant increases in risks to the mother when compared to a normal birth.
Let us not forget that abortion carries its own risks including infection (American Journal of OB/GYN, vol. 128, no. 5, 1977), increased chances of miscarriage (Herlap, New England Journal of Medicine, no. 301, 1979), secondary infertility (British Journal of OB/GYN, August, 1976), even death (American Journal of Public Health,, 1981, 71:712-716).
I would imagine that you would reply that the fetus doesn’t have a right to life, because you don’t believe life begins at conception.
Or, you may argue that although the fetus is living, its life isn’t valuable because it has not yet reached some potential.
As always, this debate will come down to the issue of when human life begins, or when it becomes valuable.
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January 16, 2009 at 9:57 am
О, это что-то, недавно где-то уже о таком слышала. Ваше мнение имеет основание быть. Вы понимаете то, о чем пишите. Немного почитав, хотелось бы узнать больше.
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January 26, 2009 at 10:01 am
GOD LOVES You AND I LOVE YOU!!! An abortion is not the will of GOD. He LOVES the little ones. PLEASE KEEP YOUR PRECIOUS BABY!!! Years from now you will see how your blessed with more beautiful babies, grandchildren, and wow the child would be a great uncle or aunt!!! PLEASE CHOOSE LIFE!!!!!!!!!
MUCH LOVE!!!
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January 30, 2009 at 1:12 am
My Grandmother was pro-life.
My grandmother became pregnant at a very young age. The father wanted no part in the baby’s life and her mother and father would not allow her to keep the child. She went through the pregnancy, delivered the child, and gave it up for adoption. My mother was sent to a children’s home in New Orleans, Louisiana where she waited for two months before being adopted by a loving mother and father.
Today my mother has three children, me being the oldest.
My mother was raised in a wonderful home where she learned morals, values, and most importantly, of how to have a relationship with Jesus Christ.
She was just a fetus to be dispelled. No one would have known; therefore, no one would have cared. But God saw and He cared. And somehow, within this crazy world, led her straight into the arms of a loving family.
Because of my grandmother, she is here today. And I am here today.
Abortion is not an option, but adoption is.
Now, to get to those more difficult questions. Is an abortion okay if the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest? Is an abortion okay if the mother’s life was in danger? Having the utmost confidence in my Lord and Savior, I would say no. I fully trust him and lay my life in His hands daily. He sees all, knows all, and is in control of all things. However, since this decision is based solely on my faith in Jesus Christ I can understand those who do not share in my beleifs.
But please remember this. A child is a blessing. If not for you, for someone else.
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February 6, 2009 at 1:25 am
Eighteen years ago, when I was 20, I got pregnant. My boyfriend and I had both been virgins. We hadn’t paid much attention in health class, and had the “it won’t happen to me” attitude. Well, it happened. The thought of telling my family that I was pregnant was horrifying to me. I was ashamed. I had also just been prescribed antidepressants a couple of months before this happened. The doctor told us that there is a risk of birth defects with the medication. We latched on to that and used it as the reason I had to get an abortion, when in reality, I would have gotten the abortion anyway, medication or not, because of the shame involved in being pregnant.
We made the appointment and went in. I have an extremely low tolerance for pain, so I had chosen the twilight sleep option. Well, right before they took me in they informed me that I couldn’t have the twilight sleep because of the medication I was taking. But they assured me that it really doesn’t hurt that bad, so don’t worry.
As soon as I got on the table I burst into tears. The doctor came in and started yelling at me to stop crying or he wouldn’t do the abortion. My boyfriend was supposed to come in with me, but when they were ready to take me back for the procedure, he was not there. Apparently he had gotten hungry and went to a fast food place. So, his mother accompanied me into the abortion room (I don’t know what else to call it). The doctor whipped the sheet up off of me to get to my private parts. He (or maybe the nurse) did it so fast that my boyfriend’s mother did not have a chance to avert her eyes. It was humiliating.
Then he started the abortion. I was 8 weeks pregnant. It was truly the most painful experience of my life. It was unbelievably painful. I was screaming. They had a lady there who was there to offer support, hold your hand, etc. She was kind to me.
It was horrible, horrible, horrible. And the guilt we felt later was tremendous, and neither one of us were particularly fond of children. We prayed and rationalized that God would give us that same baby one day, to make up for the one we aborted (killed).
I was emotionally scarred after this. I developed a fear of sexual activity that I still have to this day. I also was really bothered by stories on the news about rape. I mean, really bothered. Eventually I realized that the abortion felt like a rape, and that’s why I was reacting so strongly to those stories. I thought it would be no big deal, but it turned out to be incredibly damaging to me in so many ways.
Eventually that boyfriend and I got married, and we’ve been married now for 14 years. We have an extremely happy marriage, but sex is still a huge problem for me. About four years ago we decided that we would try and get pregnant. I remember the exact moment of conception, because we rarely had sex due to my issues with it after the abortion. The pregnancy was fine. Nothing of note happened until the 7th or 8th month, when my blood pressure began to go up. So I left my job and went on partial bedrest. The baby came a month early for some reason. But he was seemingly healthy and fine. Every day when I was at work I would think about how lucky we are that our baby is healthy.
It turned out that he wasn’t healthy at all. When he was 4 months old the pediatrician expressed concern because his head size was very small, he was not meeting milestones, he was incredibly fussy – crying all the time and barely sleeping. She ordered an MRI. I thought she was just being extra cautious.
Although there is no damage to his brain (like there would be if it were birth asphyxia), his brain was clearly too small and some of its parts weren’t formed quite right. It turned out that he had microcephaly and cerebral palsy.
He is severely disabled. He is almost four years old, but he has the skills of a 4 MONTH old. He cannot walk, talk, feed himself, sit up, roll over, crawl, etc. He has cortical vision impairment, which means that his eyesight fluctuates for no apparent reason. So sometimes he can see ok, but other times you can tell that he can’t see. He has to be fed with a special formula that I administer to him with an eyedropper (orally). He cannot have any regular food.
I believe that he is the same baby we aborted 18 years ago. It is just too big of a coincidence that the first baby would have been disabled, we asked to have that first baby back, and here is this new baby, severely disabled. And they cannot find any reason for the microcephaly. We have taken him to many, many geneticists, neurologists, and most notably, a world renowned geneticist who specializes in diagnosing children who are hard to diagnose. Blood tests, urine tests, MRIs, they could not find a reason for the disability. Later I found out that the medication I was taking way back then is a teratogen, which I already knew, but I didn’t know that one of it’s chief effects on the fetus is microcephaly. MICROCEPHALY. Do you know anyone or know anyone who knows someone who has microcephaly? This is not your run of the mill birth defect. That sealed the deal right there for me; he had to be the same baby. Go ahead and call me crazy, which I’m sure you will, but that is just too big of a coincidence.
I guess that my point is that abortion can be extremely damaging to the woman. People try to sweep that under the rug, and that’s not right. My boyfriend and I were foolish to have sex, yes. But nobody explained to us what the fetus was doing at 8 weeks, or what he looked like. This was before the internet. I was traumatized by being pregnant, I was young and immature. Aren’t the people at the abortion clinic supposed to tell you these things? They did not tell me anything, except that there would be cramping.
But my main point is that when I had the abortion, is was not just a clump of cells they sucked out. For some reason we were meant to have this disabled child, and God or fate or whoever made sure that we wouldn’t get away without having him. That first baby was the same baby I have today. Well actually he’s not a baby anymore, he’s almost 4.
He laughs and giggles a lot and people comment on how cute and sweet he is. He’s like a celebrity at the elementary school where he attends preschool – everybody fawns over him. We adore him, his grandmothers and aunts and uncles adore him. The neighbors adore him.
The fact that this happened, this gigantic “coincidence,” tells me that it was a life we took in 1990. The grief and guilt I have experienced due to the abortion are real things. So now I am against abortion, but I can’t quite say that it should be illegal. But I think it should be strongly discouraged, if not for the baby’s sake, then for the woman whose life will be forever wounded by having an abortion.
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February 6, 2009 at 1:37 am
mom to a wonderful boy,
Thank you for sharing that, I can’t imagine going through what you did, and I would guess that even sharing it anonymously on a message board must be very difficult.
Your son sounds like an angel, albeit an angel that probably takes a ton of work! 🙂
If you are willing to share more, and I can understand it you are not, I would like to hear why you feel abortion should remain legal?
Again, thank you for having the courage to share your story.
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February 10, 2009 at 9:38 am
Harriet,
Here is what the Catholic Church says:
It can never be morally justified directly to cause the death of an innocent person no matter the age or condition of that person.
Conditions of the human body, regardless of severity, in no way compromise human dignity or human rights.
Anencephaly is not a pathology of the mother, but of the child, and terminating her pregnancy cannot be a treatment or a pathology she does not have. Only if the complications of the pregnancy result in a life-threatening pathology of the mother, may the treatment of this pathology be permitted even at a risk to the child, and then only if the child’s death is not a means to treating the mother.
The fact that the life of a child suffering from anencephaly will probably be brief cannot excuse directly causing death before “viability” or gravely endangering the child’s life after “viability” as a result of the complications of prematurity.
The anencephalic child, during his or her probably brief life after birth, should be given the comfort and palliative care appropriate to all the dying.
The profound and personal suffering of the parents of an anencephalic child gives us cause for concern and calls for compassionate pastoral and medical care as the parents prepare for the pain and emptiness that the certain death of their newborn child will bring.
Be wary because not all Catholics or so called Catholic institutions follow Catholic teachings. It is a disgrace that Catholic’s like myself must speak out about, especially our pro-choice politicians who continue to receive Holy Communion. Disgraceful!
Lee
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February 10, 2009 at 9:41 am
Anna,
What about the woman in the womb’s rights??
Respectfully,
Lee
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February 21, 2009 at 11:33 am
Hi Paul,
Thank you for your kind words. Yes it difficult for me to write that message on here. I was up most of the night ruminating on my guilt about the abortion. Sometimes I look at my son and think “How could I have done that to him??” The thought of him as a little 8 week old fetus getting ripped apart makes me so upset. I just feel like the worst mother in the world. I am so upset with myself for getting pregnant to begin with…I was taking that medication and of course that would cause the disability. I feel like either way I caused him to be disabled and my heart breaks over that. Mind you, I wasn’t taking the medication the second time I was pregnant (with my son), but I was the first time and that is the baby we prayed to get back after aborting it.
On the other hand, sometimes I feel like God wanted us to have this disabled child for some reason, and so he made sure that he sent him to us. The first time he sent him we tried to foil the plan. So God sent him a second time.
Or it could just all be a strange coincidence. I did find out that a family member was afflicted with the same condition and died at the age of 5 back in 1930. So maybe it was genetic.
To answer your question, why would I say that I can’t quite say that abortion should be illegal…I’m on the fence about that. Part of me says that women will just keep having abortions even if it’s illegal. But then again, if it was illegal maybe not as *many* women would get an abortion.
I’d have to say upon further reflection, that at the end of the day, I do think it should be illegal. Abortion is not the “solution” that some people think it is, and it angers me to no end that people try to portray it as a “woman’s right” when in actuality having an abortion can destroy the woman’s life. I sometimes think about going back to that clinic I was at and telling them how horrible it all was, that they didn’t counsel me or the others correctly, that the doctor was cruel. After all, they say they are a “women’s clinic” so they are all about helping women, right? I have a feeling that they wouldn’t care one tiny iota about what I have to say. To them it is an assembly line. All these girls waiting in the hallway for their name to be called. They didn’t care about us, they treated us like cattle. Let’s see, there were about 25 of us there that day, times $400 – $10,000, that’s a lot of dough for one day’s work.
I do believe that the woman whose job it was to hold our hands during the abortion did care. You could tell that she really wanted to help us. I don’t even think she was paid, if I remember correctly she was a volunteer. But she seemed to acknowledge the gravity of the situation and was doing what she thought would be helpful for us.
Sorry to have rambled on.
All the best
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February 22, 2009 at 4:42 pm
mom to a wonderful boy:
I cannot imagine all that you have gone through, or what you are currently going through now. All I can say is thank you for having the courage to speak up about your story. Its one thing to argue about abortion on the internet, its another thing entirely to hear from those who have actually gone through it.
Of all the post-abortion testimonies I’ve heard (probably about a dozen or so online ), one very common theme has been the “assembly line” treatment at the clinic. Now, I know that hearing twelve testimonies is by no means a statistically significant number that can be used to generalize ALL clinics, and it hardly makes me an expert. Also, I do believe that there are those who care, like the volunteer you remember. I think Barack Obama is right that there are “good people on both sides of the debate”.
Having said all of that, I share your concern that they wouldn’t for one second stop “the assembly line” if you went back to talk about the pain your abortion caused you.
I am aware of one group that does care, though. Rachel’s Vineyard http://www.rachelsvineyard.org has retreats all across the country that help women (and men) deal with the repercussions of abortion in a completely nonjudgmental way. I am not affiliated with them in anyway, but I thought you might like the website so you can get some information. I dunno, maybe it would be helpful, maybe not, but I thought I’d share it anyway.
I will say one thing (and I don’t know what its worth coming from some stranger on the internet) but from what I can tell about the way you talk about your son, who must require a tremendous amount of patience and self-sacrifice, I would guess that you are far from “the worst mother on earth”. I find myself running out of patience with my healthy 2 year old and 3 month old, and complaining about how I can’t do the things that I’d like to do sometimes.
Then I hear about people like you, and I realize how self centered I can be, and how sometimes my priorities are way off. After all, what could be a better way to spend my time than just playing with my little ones? What better way to affect the world is there? Thank you for reminding me once again of the infinite blessings that my two children are to me. Your obvious love and dedication for your little one is inspiring.
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February 22, 2009 at 4:45 pm
“Be wary because not all Catholics or so called Catholic institutions follow Catholic teachings. It is a disgrace that Catholic’s like myself must speak out about, especially our pro-choice politicians who continue to receive Holy Communion. Disgraceful!”
Lee, well said!
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccáta mundi:
miserére nobis.
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March 12, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Paul thank you for your post and for the information about Rachel’s Vineyard. I appreciate you for taking the time to reach out to me like that. Your children are lucky to have you!
Take care
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March 16, 2009 at 11:25 pm
mzuri nyota Has tried to make the comparison with an anencephalic fetus with an elderly individual with Alzheimers along with the claim of being a physician. One, having no brain, or no working brain is completely different than having a working brain which is failing or losing neuron at a rapid rate, which effects certain brain functions such as recalling memories, words, and the such. No brain equal no body function to include heart, liver, stomach, lungs etc, which means death of the singular whole being. While some babies with this condition are born alive with no higher brain, some still have a brain stem which on a limited basis can provide enough “juice” to send signals the the heart and lungs to work enough to keep the whole singular being alive for a short period of time before it shuts down completely, thus formally resulting in the beings death. The brain of the elderly is slowing shutting down, which means that it 1. used to work as intended 2, is slowly deteriorating much like the rest of the body organs do over time of constantly reproducing the cells, and 3 still functions to the point to keep the whole being alive. It alos means that the brain is actually present to begin with which means it has the potential to work. A fetus with this condition does not have the brain to begin with therefor cannot even have the smallest amount of potetial to work to sustain the life of the whole.
And Tiffany VanMeter, a woman cannot have an abortion at 7 months for no particular reason. The only reason in which she may have to make the choice of an abortion (that would be legal) would be if her life was in danger because of some condition caused by the pregnancy and a c-section or induced labor would put her life at more risk than an abortion, or the fetus was found to have a condition that is incompatible with life, such as the condition discussed in the original post.
And for Paul….while abortion, as any other surgery, comes with certain risks and complications, in actuality an early abortion is much safer than chilbirth. Childbirth, in a county such as America and Eastern Europse where the medicine is greatly advanced, is about 7 times more dangerous in resulting in death or permenant injury. In other countries with less medical advancements its much higher, indeed in some counties it is common place for mothers to say goodbye to their other children when they go into childbirth, because maternal mortality rates are so high.
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May 12, 2009 at 2:05 pm
While it is easy to assume all abortions are a choice – some actually are not. My daughter has severe medical problems and cannot carry a baby to term. This is one of the hardest things she has ever had to do. It would be my wish and dream that there would be some understanding when considering situations as tough as this.
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May 12, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Lauren, I ask this question sincerely. What medical problem does your daughter have that she can not carry a baby to term? What about carrying to 23 weeks when babies can survive outside the womb? I am very sorry that you and your family are being faced with this decision. Thanks.
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May 17, 2009 at 2:11 pm
My daughter has Lupus, Rheumatoid Arthritis and Reynaud’s disease. She has been in the hospital twice since December receiving blood transfusions (6 so far) and is on very heavy medication (not just pain killers) to try to bring her count to normal. Her immune system is shot. Her doctors believe in her fragile and unstable condition would not be able to carry a baby to term and the effects of the drugs would most likely damage a baby. Thanks.
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