Abortion
Susan Hill and I were having lunch at the Mayflower Hotel years ago when she informed me that she was opening up another abortion clinic, this time in Jackson, Mississippi. I looked at her incredulously and asked her why? “Because the women down there need a good facility” she answered.
I had known Susan for many years by that time. She was a vivacious, articulate woman who could sweet talk anyone to get what she wanted. She’d also rip your lungs out if you crossed her. At that time, she ran seven abortion clinics in cities like Jacksonville, Raleigh and Fort Wayne. She also owned what had to be the most famous abortion clinic in the country, the Fargo Women’s Health Organization – the only clinic in the state. Because it was all by itself in that conservative part of the country, it was the target of incredibly intents anti-abortion activity. Protests with thousands of people, fire bombings, constant death threats. Their doctors had bodyguards and were smuggled into Fargo in the back seats of cars. The clinic was featured on the cover of the New York Times Magazine.
Abortion
And Susan loved all of the attention it got. It was her political statement against those who sought to make North Dakota an “abortion free state.”
At that time in Mississippi, there were two other abortion clinics that left much to be desired. “The women deserve better and I’m gonna build the Taj Majal right there in Jackson,” Susan told me. She was anxious to go into the belly of the beast and build a state of the art abortion facility in that backward state. Over the next year or two, she spent a lot of time flying back and forth to Jackson. I can still visualize her walking the streets in her skin tight dresses, usually a black ensemble that offset her outrageously blond hair. When she walked into a room at the Ritz in Manhattan, she attracted attention. I could only imagine the ruckus she caused in redneck country.
Susan ultimately built her clinic, which I was fortunate enough to visit on two occasions. It was a jewel, albeit an eyesore to the anti-abortion zealots who now had a new target. And they camped out front for years thereafter. But the clinic survived and served thousands and thousands of women.
A few years ago, Susan Hill died of breast cancer. I think of her often. And I could not help thinking about her again just a few days ago when I read that the Jackson Women’s Health Organization was on the verge of closing. It seems that the Health Department has announced that it would revoke the clinic’s operating license after an inspection found that it is has not complied with a state law that requires that all abortion doctors to maintain local hospital privileges. Closure of the clinic may take up to six weeks until a hearing can be held and a formal revocation can take place.
But I also heard that the clinic staff was fighting hard to keep the only clinic in Mississippi open. They are apparently grasping onto any straw and fighting at every turn to assure that women in that state have access to good reproductive health services.
They may or may not ultimately prevail. But their courageous efforts deserve much applause. I know Susan is rooting them on right now.
Related articles
- Mississippi’s Sole Abortion Clinic Could Be Gone in a Few Months (jezebel.com)
- Oregon Is Now The Only State With No Abortion Restrictions (GRAPHIC) (addictinginfo.org)
Abortion - Abortion Clinics, Abortion Pill, Abortion Information 
February 3, 2013 at 4:34 pm
Half the people in Mississippi are Batshit crazy.
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February 4, 2013 at 9:00 am
That’s what I thought also, Serene, until the state defeated that “Fetal Personhood” amendment last year. Now, that was a shocker but it restored some of my faith in that state.
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February 4, 2013 at 9:11 am
But didn’t almost half vote for the Personhood amendment?
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February 4, 2013 at 1:29 pm
Almost half voted for it but the important thing is that more than half did not. I – like so many other observers – felt sure that that state would pass the amendment. If they can’t pass it in Mississippi, they are gonna havce a very difficult time passing it anywhere!
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February 4, 2013 at 8:44 pm
So half of Mississippi are raging lunatics . . . !
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February 3, 2013 at 7:58 pm
Any person in Mississippi who legislates to close this last clinic should be held liable for any death
of any woman who dies after attempting abortion on her own,
of any woman who travels to another state for abortion but is turned away,
or any woman, after feeling so desperate because this state, like so many others, doesn’t give a tinker’s damn about women’s rights, kills herself
shame on all of you . . .
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February 4, 2013 at 9:02 am
Great points, Parker, as always. But the legislators who enact these restrictions think that it just means that women will not get their abortions if there is no clinic in the state. They dont understand that no state will ever be an “abortion free” state. Women in every state will get an abortion if they want one and, as you pointed out, it could be in a very dangerous environment. They just dont remember when abortion was illegal women still got abortions!
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February 8, 2014 at 1:22 am
This is the proper BEST YOUR LIFE Change Your Life NOW! Esther Hicks Law of Attraction blog for anoyne who wants to attempt out out virtually this topic. You observation so much its nearly tiring to contend with you (not that I rattling would wante280a6HaHa). You definitely put a new acrobatics on a message thats been backhand roughly for years. Discriminating force, simply high!
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February 4, 2013 at 9:11 am
Good point!
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February 4, 2013 at 1:31 pm
I think it’s an important point for us pro-choicers to keep making. Soooooo many people no longer remember the days when abortion was illegal and women were travelling hundreds of miles, if not thousands, to find an illegal abortionist. Or, even worse, they just stayed home and performed the abortion themselves. Hmmmm, maybe it’s time for me to write another blog to that affect.
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February 3, 2013 at 10:56 pm
This saddens me deeply, to think that the citizens of Mississippi can think so little of the women that live there,and to be so short-sighted to not realize that they have only ended legal abortions, the unsafe illegal kind will now flourish and now the women will start dying from botched abortions.
Can they be so obtuse to not realize that they have now sent the women of Mississippi back to the middle ages, back to having back-alley-abortions. How can anyone not understand that if a woman doesn’t want to be pregnant, she won’t remain pregnant, she will find a way to terminate that pregnancy.
How could anyone in good conscious take a woman’s right to choose to have a safe legal medical procedure. We need more Susan Hills. And yes shame on you people of Mississippi, shame on you.
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February 4, 2013 at 9:05 am
Thanks, Sarah Rose. The problem is that people hear that the state is requiring abortion doctors to have hospital privileges and they think that sounds pretty reasonable. They dont realize how abortion doctors are often purposely not given privileges and are ostracized. So, I could see how the general public did not get outraged when Mississippi passed the original law that they are now using as a reason to close the clinic down.
And you are correct: we need more Susan Hills. She was a true pioneer and the most politically saavy person I’ve ever met.
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February 5, 2013 at 8:27 am
Good point SR!
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February 4, 2013 at 7:46 am
So-called “pro-lifers” have no ability to take the long view; it’s all about the way they feel when they hear somebody can have an abortion. They don’t want to know how a child usually fares, they don’t want to know about how it affects the quality of life for an entire state when half of its children are unwanted, and they think that living in a state ranking last in almost every quality of life indicator is in accordance with God’s inscrutable plan.
It’s just as well the ones in Mississippi don’t mind their kids growing up to be mouth-breathers.
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February 4, 2013 at 9:07 am
Charles is right. I think the anti-abortion folks just wake up in the morning and start thinking about all of those little fetus’ (“feti”?) It’s what motivates them and it’s what gets the attention they so desperately crave. Folks who are working in a homeless shelter don’t get the same attention as those standing outside of an abortion clinic screaming and harassing women….
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February 4, 2013 at 11:06 am
Hilarious about the attention seeking behaviors of the anti abortion folks. You don’t see them wailing about all the children and their parents in homeless shelters. My guess, they don’t care, couldn’t care because it’s not enough to get them noticed. Imagine all of them standing outside the shelters with graphic signs of people who have died from being homeless and/or hungry.
Like Charles repeatedly warns us–they have no ability to take the long view. Or as I would say, they can’t take the long view because it’s too messy, too complicated and, frankly, too much for them.
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February 4, 2013 at 1:34 pm
Yeah, I just think they like and need the attention. Look at ole John Dunkle. I think this is what keeps him alive, the prospect of getting up on a cold Saturday morning, lugging his ugly signs out to the “abortion mill”, shouting through his bullhorn thinking he is actually connecting with a woman walking in. It’s rather pathetic actually but I think those types are dying off. I know there are always exceptions but I’ve got this feeling that most of the young folks dont go out on a regular basis to the clinics. They’ll show up for some special event but….
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February 4, 2013 at 3:18 pm
I’m betting you’re right, Pat. Give their cause another decade and there won’t be all those crusty types lurking about the clinics, shouting at women, leering at their bodies. It reminds me of the time when an old guy named Don told a rather voluptuous young women with a skimpy tank top, “Looks like you’re all set up for breastfeeding.” I gagged at his suggestion but laughed at the ignorance of the fact that she was on staff (and not a client).
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February 5, 2013 at 2:26 pm
Give the anti-lifers another decade and there won’t be all those crusty types lurking about the mills hastily ensuring women go inside to kill their unborn babies because those crusty old types are all pro-abortion so there won’t be any young crusty’s to replace them!! hehehe
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February 5, 2013 at 5:05 pm
Or, Just Saying, as Mother Teresa put it:
“If abortion were legal, I’d be out of a job!”
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February 9, 2014 at 5:30 am
hi ce3jay, not a hi ce3jay, not a noob’ question at all. Is the spasm in your low or mid back? Here’s what I’d do as a test: do the eecxrises we show in this video, then at the end, get back into static back and do that for another 5-10 minutes. Make sure your low back is settled into the ground. Then see how that feels. If it still hurts, feel free to email me and I’ll give you some other suggestions.
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February 7, 2013 at 7:19 am
Because in Charleston. SC this is the type of thing that the staff and doctors of the clinic are subjected to every day!! if you go to: www:postandcourier.com/charlesston and then log in: Charleston Parking Lot Turns Into Symbolic Abortion Battlefield on Saturdays
You can see pictures of “A BUNCH OF OLD MEN….swarming the parking lot and one faithful man Ron Katz supporting women!! Ron has been there for over 20 yrs. He started voming bavk when I was there a wonderful dedicated man!! Please read this article..
CHARLESTON PARKING LOT TURNS INTO SYMBOLIC
ABORTION BATTLEFIELD ON SATURDAYS!!
“As the sun and moon battled for dominance in Charleston’s sky Saturday morning, two groups of people stood on opposite sides of a yellow line. One group stood ready to meet the women who drove into the parking lot of Charleston Women’s Center, where abortions are performed. The group called to the women as they parked in the lot, with pleas such as “Adoption, not abortion.”
“Across the lot, Ron Kaz, a 59-year-old volunteer for the center, went about a much different mission. Wearing a red volunteer vest, he opened the front door as each woman entered. Most of the women’s gazes remained on that door, shutting out or ignoring the pleas heard from across the lot.”
“The pavement in front of the clinic building has been a symbolic battlefield for the protectors of life and choice, a debate that at times has become violent and threatening at the small strip of space along Ashley River Road.”
“In 2010, a doctor was accused of flashing a gun at protesters, and last month, a former volunteer of the clinic was accused of bumping a protester with his car. Over the years, protesters have been accused of blocking the clinic’s driveway, and police have responded to the clinic nearly two dozen times since 2009.”
“It’s all part of a national tug-of-war that has raged since Roe v. Wade made abortions legal in America 40 years ago. It’s a battle that’s been fought in courtrooms, in parking lots like this and in the halls of government. Right now in Columbia, some lawmakers and pro-abortion rights advocates are currently tangling over proposed legislation that could limit women’s access to abortions in South Carolina.”
LOCAL BATTLEFIELD
“The protesters began gathering at 6:30 a.m. Saturday. It started with a small group of four people carrying similar signs. By 8:30 a.m., those protesters were joined by at least a dozen others.”
“They were people like Kenneth Collins, of Brunson who left his home in rural South Carolina at 4:45 a.m. to arrive at the clinic before it opened at 7 a.m. His voice carried a soft tone as he said to a woman walking into the clinic: “Jesus has a better way than killing your baby.”
“She didn’t look his way as Kaz grabbed the door knob and ushered her inside.”
“When women weren’t entering the clinic, Kaz would, at times, lean against his car, parked next to the entrance of the parking lot. He’d stare out toward the small crowd gathered almost at arms length away. Many of these men and women spend almost every Saturday morning outside the clinic.”
“William Edward Gasque, 81, of Charleston, is one of those faithful. He has spent the past 10 years of his Saturday mornings outside the women’s center, most of the time wearing a sign around his neck that reads “God loves you and your baby.”
“Baby rattles are attached to the poster. He’s worn it so long that the edges have beveled over time. Every now and then, Gasque said, he hollers to the women who walk into the clinic “promoting the sanctity of life.”
“Gasque was the protester that was struck by a car on a recent morning.”
“Yet that didn’t keep him from coming out this Saturday. At times, he would walk up to the cars as they entered or exited the lot and extended his hand filled with anti-abortion literature.”
“Gasque said he’s sympathetic to the women who are there to receive abortions. “I try not to be harsh or ugly,” he said.”
“Gasque said he is determined to reach the women on a spiritual level. Sometimes, he will yell out “Don’t kill your baby” in a hopeful attempt to get the women to change their minds, he said. “That is harsh, but that is essential,” Gasque said. “That’s what this business (abortion) is all about.”
“Kaz, the volunteer, is as passionate in his mission as Gasque, but from the opposing point of view. He has been volunteering to escort women to and from the clinic for the past 20 years, and he believes it’s his duty to shield women from people like Gasque.
“It’s incredibly unbelievable that people are harassing women trying to get medical care,” Kaz said. “Not all the women entering the clinic are having abortions performed,” said Kaz, who noted that the clinic offers a variety of women’s health care.”
Representatives with the Charleston Women’s Center said they could not comment on anything. But Kaz said on Saturdays, many of the women entering the clinic are there for abortion procedures. Charleston Women’s Center is one of three in the state that performs them.
“The women coming in are typically incredibly stressed to start with having made a hard decision and coming in for a medical procedure,” said Kaz, who isn’t happy about some of the protesters’ actions. Kaz said not all of the protesters yell or are obtrusive, though. Most of the participants in the “40 days for Life” vigil group hand out literature and pray in front of the clinic, he said.”
“The one thing you don’t want them to do is think you’re judging them. You just want to help them,” said Donna Barber, the group’s prayer vigil coordinator. They’ll begin their 40-day prayer vigil in front of the clinic starting again on Feb. 17.”
“Some of them come quietly, and I don’t have a problem with that, and others are loud. I don’t deny their right to believe what they believe,” Kaz said. “What I have a problem with is the insistence that everybody else live by their religious standards.”
“Womens’ reaction to the prayers or protests varies, according to Kaz. “Some of them are angry and yell back. Some of them are clearly intimidated. Some of them are able to ignore it.”
RECENT INCIDENT
“Gasque, a soft spoken veteran and retired engineer, walked along the driveway entrance of the clinic on Saturday. He was standing on the edge of the adjacent driveway on Jan. 12 when Larry Carter Center, who has escorted women into the clinic in the past as a volunteer, approached him with his vehicle, Gasque said. He didn’t move and Center kept inching forward until he brushed Gasque out of the way with his vehicle.”
“Gasque said he didn’t move because he wasn’t in error standing there. “He was trying to intimidate me and it didn’t work,” he said. Center was charged with simple assault by Charleston police.”
“The incident was posted on YouTube, recorded by a “40 days for life” participant, Tim Cox, who said protesters have been harassed by Center for several years.”
“Center said he is no longer a volunteer for the clinic and said he was there that day dropping off an item for a volunteer. He told The Post and Courier he angled his car in the direction of Gasque because he didn’t want his license plate number videotaped.”
“It’s not Center’s first time of being accused of a confrontation with protesters. “I’ve been arrested many times,” Center said.”
“He’s been convicted three times of simple assault from incidents outside the clinic. On May 5, 2009, Center was accused of kicking the sign of a protester. Center is currently appealing that case, according to municipal court records.”
“On July 30, 2011, Center was accused of bumping the leg of a protester with a lawn mower. Center submitted an Alford plea, which means he acknowledged there was likely enough evidence to convict him if the case had gone to trial. A judge sentenced him to 30 days in jail but suspended the sentence, according to court records.”
“On Saturday morning, tensions rose when Center pulled into the parking lot across the street from the clinic around 7:45 a.m.”
“Everybody stay clear,” one protester yelled out.”
“Center had just pleaded guilty on Friday to simple assault in the case involving Gasque. He parked his car and briefly argued with a protester while speaking to a Post and Courier reporter but then left without incident.”
OTHER INCIDENTS
“While a handful of incidents have included Center, Charleston police officers have responded to the clinic in the past four years involving other problems. Twenty-one incidents have been reported involving the Charleston Women’s Center since 2009. Those include allegations of simple assaults, obscene or harassing phone calls, intimidations and trespassing. They also included several reports of protesters blocking the driveway.”
“On Oct. 2, 2010, Gary Clayton Boyle, a Blountville, Tenn., physician, was charged with pointing a firearm. Boyle was approached by three protesters as he entered the clinic when he brandished a black handgun, according to police.”
“On June 29, Boyle pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of disorderly conduct and was ordered to pay a $100 fine.”
CURRENTLEGISLATION
“More than 100 miles away, a similar battle brews among lawmakers and Planned Parenthood advocates, who have been on opposite sides of a handful of bills each year seeking to limit access to abortions, according to Sloane Whalen, Planned Parenthood and Health Systems director of public affairs for South Carolina.”
“Currently, there are four pieces of legislation that relate to abortion and women’s access to it. Two bills propose granting state constitutional rights to fetuses. State Sen. Lee Bright, R-Spartanburg, and Sen. Kevin L. Bryant, R-Anderson, are sponsoring the Senate bills, 83 and 87, which Bryant refers to as “personhood bills.”
“Bryant said the bills would be very large steps in the direction of his ultimate goal, dissolving women’s access to abortions in South Carolina.
“It’s a very tender, delicate debate because you’ve got a mother who is obviously in a desperate situation. My heart goes out to the mother. But you have another person, you have a child, that has rights,” Bryant said.
Bryant said he wants people to realize a fetus is a separate individual that needs protection. Whalen called the bills “unproductive.”
“Abortion is such a private personal decision that women make and just like any other medical decision, perfect strangers or politicians are not involved in that decision-making process, and they shouldn’t be because it’s a personal decision,” she said.Instead, Whalen said she’d like lawmakers to focus on providing women better access to
reproductive health care in order to help prevent unwanted pregnancies. Both bills are currently being considered by the Senate’s Judiciary Committee.”
“The number of abortions in South Carolina in recent years has topped 10,000 a year.”
“In 2011, women in South Carolina had 10,117 abortions, according to the state Department of Health and Environmental Control. The number of abortions has decreased by 1,539 abortions between 2009 and 2011, records state. Those numbers include residents who leave the state to get abortions.”
“Outside the Charleston Women’s Center, as long as women are getting abortions, people will continue making pleas outside its doors in hopes of changing minds.”
Cheryle Freiberger, of Charleston, who stood outside the clinic on Saturday, said she wished someone would have convinced her not to abort her baby in 1974. “I regret my abortion,” read the words on Freiberger’s sign that she carried on Saturday.”
“It’s a choice, though, and Kaz said he believes the women he opens the door for every week have a right to make that decision alone and in private.
“This Saturday, Kaz plans to be back out there. So do protesters like Gasque. Each of them will likely take their places again on either side of the yellow line in the clinic’s parking lot as protectors of their caus
REACH: NATALIE CAULA AT: 843-937-5594
TWITTER.COM/mcaula..
THIS IS PROPOSED LEGISLATION IN S.C. FOR THIS 2013
Bills sponsored by S.C. Sens. Bright and Bryant:
S 83: “Personhood Act of South Carolina” would give fetuses equal rights under the state’s constitution.
S 87: “Life beginning at conception act” would also give fetuses equal rights under the state’s constitution.
S 204: Would require additional certifications in obstetrics and gynecology among physicians performing abortions.
.
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February 8, 2013 at 8:17 am
Thanks for all that info Lorriane!
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February 8, 2013 at 3:07 pm
good stuff, Lorraine!! Wow…
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February 4, 2013 at 9:12 am
I agree Responsible . . .
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February 10, 2014 at 9:05 am
Hi, DaWa:It is nice to hear you again. It was a pity that you missed two itmorpant reunions (M76 and KMCC) last week. Perhaps we can get together when you come back next March. How about your post-doctoral fellowship in Boston? Actually, I do not have any plan to go abroad in the coming year because I am in charge for four research projects now. Please take my blessings to your family. Best WishesArvin Sun
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February 4, 2013 at 9:16 am
Susan Hill was one of our strongest advocates for Reproductive Rights.
Thanks for mentioning her.
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February 4, 2013 at 1:36 pm
Thanks, Elena. She was actually one of the most fascinating people I’ve ever met. And I really think she loved driving up to her clinic in her Mercedes, coming out in her short skirts, big sunglasses, etc. And her clinics were beautiful as well. Her clinic in Raleigh was the first I ever visited and to this day I remember the beautiful waiting room with fresh cut flowers every day and nice soft music being piped in. And she could drink you under the table 🙂
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February 6, 2013 at 8:58 am
One wonders how ‘fascinating’ God found her abortion activity and if she’s regretting the livelihood that allowed her to drive up to her mills in her Mercedes (feigning contrived horror that Susan Hill drove such an ostentatious car as a Mercedes Benz and wondering out loud why couldn’t she just drive a VW bug and give all her money to the poor starving people – after all that is what pro-lifers are supposed to do with their income.)
We all have an eternal destiny and our actions in this world will determine our ultimate destiny, I sincerely hope that God was all merciful to her and not the just judge. God will not be mocked and you folks decide every day whether or not you will choose to follow Him or his adversary, Satan… May God have mercy on her soul and ALL the souls of the faithful departed – especially the souls of those most in need of his mercy.
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February 6, 2013 at 10:17 am
You know, Just Saying, there are folks who have nice cars and ALSO give money to charity – like Susan did. I love how you are just making some assumptions about her just because she was in the abortion field. I should have added that the Mercedes was a very old one that was often breaking down. Do you think God will take that into account?
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February 6, 2013 at 11:19 am
Pat, I’m merely pointing out with tongue in cheek the hypocrisy in that if a pro-lifer drives a nice car he/she is chided as being selfish from the pro-aborts.
Yes, I’m sure God will take everything into account – more so than we can ever imagine in our limited human capacity. The point I’m trying to make is I fear you pro-aborts are on the wrong side of the issue, an issue that will have eternal implications. God knows what’s in a woman’s heart when she goes into a mill to end her child’s life – we are not judging her – but he also never wants her to despair in such a way that she feels an abortion is the only choice she can make. He loves us all and wants us to choose HIM. By choosing abortion we side with Lucifer as he is the prince of death. God is the author of life.
On your blog I’ve regularly noticed that your follower’s compassion ends with that of the woman’s choice only and it is not extended to anyone or anything that does not agree with them – much less the woman’s unborn child. The phrase misery loves company comes to mind. Time and again they slander men and woman who have the courage to speak up for the unborn by calling them every vile and hateful name imaginable. Those who leave the abortion industry or who publicly speak up because they regret their abortion are labeled as fools. I fear for the soul of these people. Do they have compassion?? I sincerely hope to God they do and they are not just radically pro-abortion because they truly feel killing the unborn is morally acceptable and something to be celebrated.
I merely implore you and your followers on this blog to reassess your position because the eternal consequences will be devastating. Your efforts on behalf of the pro-abortion issue seem to have encompassed decades of your life. That is a very sad statistic indeed. Why can’t you put your efforts into legislation to help the single mom, her children, the family unit, etc? I’m sure they would be better spent there and God would be pleased.
The good shepherd leaves the 99 sheep in search of the lost one. Let heaven celebrate your return into the fold.
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February 6, 2013 at 2:54 pm
“Just saying” – you have no clue the compassion felt by so many on the pro-choice side of life – yes, “life.” While you make your judgments about those who leave difficult decisions to women and their doctors, and pose as some caring person who cares for all…in truth, so many who behave as your prose indicates actually care only about birth and not at all about life… No one condemns anyone for having “things” if those things are important to them. What one drives cannot possibly reflect their charity or lack of. However, the legislation one supports or does not support clearly reflects their charity and compassion. On that front, ever notice which politicians oppose funding for family programs? Children’s programs and resources? Healthcare? Yes indeed – none other than the zealously anti-abortion politicians, and that is at local, state, and federal levels.
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February 7, 2013 at 5:08 am
Just saying, if you don’t like being called vile names, get out of the anti abortion business. Your efforts are not appreciated outside clinics or on this blog. You butt in under the guise of your faith but respect no other faith. You malign those with whom you disagree with loaded language of your own making. You obsess over the singular issue of abortion while real children are being gunned down in schools, starved, beaten, emotionally abused and trafficked into slavery. But you go on with your hair shirt. You are no doubt one of those bible thumper christians. Continue with your unwelcomed preaching cause it clearly makes you feel better about yourself.
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February 8, 2013 at 3:11 pm
You know, JS, I actually would not hold it against any pro-lifer if they drove a nice car. What do I care? Good for you if you can afford it. And I actually do appreciate when your “compassionate” side comes out and you are praying for me/us and expressing concern that we’re going to Hell. I’d much rather you be doing that that calling me all sorts of names. Over the years I have tried to facilitate an honest.civil conversation between adversaries.
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February 6, 2013 at 1:43 pm
I have to chuckle at the “I’m merely pointing out with tongue in cheek” comment because it’s not within the capacity of Just Saying to “merely” point out anything.
Like the act of bell ringing that is symbolic of proselytizing religions, Just Saying’s polemics illustrate the pointless interference with the quiet of other people.
But good on you for trying . . .
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February 6, 2013 at 5:32 pm
Oh Kate don’t be so flippant. The above comments were stated with love and concern for you and your friends.
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February 6, 2013 at 11:51 am
What happens if we follow neither?
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February 6, 2013 at 4:41 pm
As one who was once very active in the Arkansas pro-choice movement, it is disheartening to see the legislature involved in the abortion issue in this way.
Clearly, religious and moral views of some are attempting to create policy for all. Ironically, in this article, the Cornerstone Clinic OB-GYN who discouraged a woman from abortion and claimed she cherished the 11 hours her child lived after birth, is also among those to complain about healthcare costs. Think about the direct costs to maintain that particular pregnancy…and the emotional costs for the woman.
On the one hand, he wants all pregnancies to result in birth (regardless of health issues) and on the other hand he does not want to expand Medicaid or health care programs for the poor.
Thus, all he really cares about is birth…not life.
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February 8, 2013 at 8:19 am
Anti Choicers don’t care about life.
Everyday we seem them in legislature voting away care for children.
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February 8, 2013 at 3:13 pm
Thanks for chiming in, Kim. If you are the “Kim” I know, I think it would be great if you wrote a regular blog for this page about your experiences running an abortion clinic. The same goes for Lorraine!
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February 6, 2013 at 11:50 am
To “Just Saying”:
Rather than dogma and darkness let’s talk about truth by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, where discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction – faith in fiction is a damnable false hope. All your talk, Just saying, about existence after death is born of your will to go on living, of dread of your own death. You are, as Thomas Edison says, “incurably religious—the best way to describe the mental condition of so many people.”
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February 6, 2013 at 5:47 pm
Faith is NOT built on facts – faith is a gift of God which we are all given – although many choose not to accept this gift. It is a matter of the heart.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Titus 1:2
a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,
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February 8, 2013 at 8:21 am
JS’s brand of faith is for the truly ignorant and uneducated.
Why do you reject the Gift of Faith from all the other major world religions JS?
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February 10, 2013 at 8:10 am
Once again JS proves they cannot answer a simple question. This makes their other imbecilic comments incredibly irrelevant . . .
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February 6, 2013 at 5:51 pm
Thank you for the compliment Parker!! Incurably religious!! Awesome! Oh and no I don’t dread my own death because I have FAITH in God!! It’s a beautiful thing!!
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February 6, 2013 at 7:45 pm
jfs: If going to Heaven is so wonderful, then why do you dread the idea of fetuses being able to go directly to heaven, courtesy of abortiion?
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February 7, 2013 at 7:12 am
The rest is silence….
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February 7, 2013 at 9:55 am
Charles,
Going to heaven courtesy of abortion?? The level of crassness by pro-aborts truly never ceases to amaze me More times than not I choose to ignore vulgarity such as this as it barely deserves the dignity of a reply. However, since an important point on God’s behalf needs to be addressed, I’ll compromise my standards and reply.
Abortion is wrong on so many levels one hardly knows where to begin but suffice it to say, Charles, when you abort a baby and choose who will live and who will die you play God. God alone is the author and creator of life – the one who gives us life and numbers our days on this Earth..
Man is made in God’s own image (Genesis 1:27) and each life is of great value to God and of great value to this world. I’m sure you can all relate to Steve Jobs for example. His mother was 23 and unmarried when she got pregnant. A perfect candidate for abortion in today’s world where ‘unplanned and/or unwanted children’ are simply ‘taken care of – snuffed out of existence. Thankfully for him (and the rest of the world) his mother made the choice to let her baby live and the world has benefited greatly because of his life and the contributions he made to society. Even the life of President Obama, the most pro-baby killing president in our history – could have ended before it began and he as well could have been one of the innocent 55+ million dead by abortion.
How different this world might be if those children had been allowed to live and contribute to society. As ludicrous as it sounds, you pro-aborts might even have more #’s in your ranks. Alas, we’ll never know – you’ve chosen to kill them….. Thankfully, our Heavenly Father welcomes them all into Heaven courtesy of HIS LOVE FOR US.
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February 7, 2013 at 10:49 am
If you don’t like “Going to heaven courtesy of abortion??” then how about
Return to Sender? or Thanks but no thanks? or
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February 10, 2013 at 8:12 am
JS’s rants are (yawnnn . . .) just plain boring.
JS, can you write a coherent comment please?
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February 7, 2013 at 5:27 am
it’s so obvious that JS fears death because there’s no guarantee that all the shoving of religion down everyone’s throat might.not.matter.in.the.end….it might just be that death of the physical body is the end and deep down JS isn’t THAT crazy that he/she knows this is all a freakin’ fake show. or it might just be that all the smarmy talk and loaded language JS used in bad faith will, in the end, be his/her own undoing. risky business this mental health stuff
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February 7, 2013 at 7:36 am
Horace, the so-called “pro-lifer” actually feels he/she has a pretty shaky relationship with God. The fixation on abortion is an allegory in which the various parties– abortion, the fetus and the so-called “pro-lifer,”– represent respectively, Death, the so-called “pro-lifer” and God.
Were her faith sufficiently strong, Just saying would not feel a need to be opposed to abortion. It isn’t, so she has to comfort herself by showing a God is as interested in keeping her alive as she is in “rescuing” a fetus.
And as for her comfort in her faith– while her mind joyfully awaits residence in the bosom of Abraham, her body, like everyone else’s, fears death. Her mind has to deal with that fear. Her faith is that attempt, and it is not working well enough, so she attempts to bolster it with physical evidence of the possibility of life eternal. She knows that if she can become a hero in other people’s eyes, they will remember her long after she is dead.
And if the “victim” she rescues is as spotless as the Paschal Lamb, she will be an even more glorious hero. Thus, the depiction of the fetus as having all those qualities it cannot contradict: innocence, sentience, cognition, purity, etc. Nor can she admit to its imperfections, real or potential– anencephaly, trisomy-13, and so forth– since she is driven to be the greatest hero since Jesus Christ.
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February 7, 2013 at 8:50 am
Wow, Charles, great thoughts here. Thanks Horace for chiming in. If I understand all this, it’s the lack of faith that drives JS to fixate on death and abortion and God. Poor, poor, thing.
I would argue, however, that the fetus cannot be a victim because it isn’t sentient. The woman carrying the fetus might consider herself a victim when accosted by antiabortion activists, althought most simply ignore them and their egregious invasions of privacy. The antiabortion folks often think of themselves as victims. But they can hardly be called victims when they’re the bullies who initiate and perpetuate the harassment of women.
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February 7, 2013 at 10:35 am
You know, if all of this works for Just Saying, then go for it. Indeed, I wish I had more faith because I can see how it can comfort you when there are tragedies. But I just can’t do it. So, as long as you dont try to shove your religion and your faith onto me, go knock yourself out.
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February 9, 2014 at 12:01 am
Thank you sooo much for the advice.I cured it with apple cider.I had ekemza on my hands till my elbows.Now it’s gone.You will see the results during the first week already.It will take a couple of weeks or two-three months(depending on you) to cure.Good luck you guys even tho I know how goooood it feels when u scratch it:-)))
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February 18, 2014 at 6:41 am
What a great resource this text is.
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February 6, 2013 at 7:43 pm
Sorry, Parker, but while it might be nicer to have faith built on facts, it can be built on fiction, and belief ought to be based on facts, but is often based on fiction.
And as somebody said, “If one person believes in an impossibility, he’s crazy. If forty million believe, it’s a religion.”
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February 5, 2013 at 12:46 pm
It is sad to see that people is always asking to be respected but they forget to do the same…
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February 5, 2013 at 5:40 pm
FYI to the adminisrator of the page: You put a link on Susan Hill’s name in the first sentence but it goes to the wrong Susan Hill.
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February 6, 2013 at 12:04 pm
“One method of destroying a concept is by diluting its meaning. Observe that by ascribing rights to the unborn, i.e., the nonliving, the anti-abortionists obliterate the rights of the living.” Ayn Rand.
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February 7, 2013 at 9:00 am
Leave it to Ayn Rand. But let’s be more specific. The antiaborts try to claim that they love both fetus and woman. But how can they love the woman who wants an abortion and gets an abortion? How can they love a woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant? How can they love a woman who despises those products of conception because she despises the man who inseminated her? How can they love a woman who thinks that they, the antiaborts, are ignorant, fearful buttinskis? How can they love a woman who knows her rights to bodily integrity, full citizenship, free speech and freedom from other people’s religions? My guess? They can’t, they won’t, they don’t.
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February 7, 2013 at 10:39 am
I’ve never thought they love women. Indeed, I think most of them are mysoginists, which I know I spelled wrong. They especially hate women who are walking into an abortion clinic.
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February 7, 2013 at 3:16 pm
Oh, these antiabortion activists think their ineffable faith is all that matters. Caring about women is unimportant to their imaginary journey to the end of their lives and, then, across some magical threshold to their magic kingdom they call heaven. I wonder if they fly across the threshold? Or perhaps their passage into their magic kingdom is accomplished through some form of sacred osmosis.
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February 7, 2013 at 9:11 pm
More likely they simply rot in the earth, Parker. After the hippity hoppity ceremonies with their magical wine and transubstantiated crackers and the drunken funeral luncheons with the delusional masses, the dead simply return to the earth, dust to dust. No more, no less. Hence, they waste their entire life worrying about their so-called faith and their fictive afterlife–all the while being total as$holes toward those with whom they disagree. It would make an ordinary man like their sainted Jesus blush with embarassment. But they don’t get it. Poor bastards.
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February 6, 2013 at 5:21 pm
Just Saying~~ Thanks for hanging in here and presenting the self-proclaimed “pro-lifer’s” points of view.
When God starts providing babies with diapers, food, shelter and well-child checkups, I’ll start paying attention to what might happen in the hereafter. What happens in the here and now is that every child needs good parenting. If any woman decides she cannot be a good parent and decides to have an abortion, she is doing your “unborn child” a favor.
If you want other people to have children whom nobody will care for, then it is your ethical duty to care for that child. You need to practice for it, so get in touch with your state’s adoption services– they can fix you up with a child no one wants to adopt; you’ll definitely be appreciated.
Or you can militate to have your taxes raised to provide your state’s children with all the necessities their parents might not be able to: it costs $280,000 to get the average kid from birth to high school graduation. Why don’t you multiply that number by the number of abortions in your state and fight for taxes to provide that money to the mother of every “unborn human” you want “rescued”? Two thousand abortions= $560,000,000. Surely you can do that!
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February 7, 2013 at 9:12 am
From the blue vine collective [dot]org about stupid religious stuff people say:
Lastly, really stupid religious stuff we say when we try to explain that, “The end of the world is coming!”
“If you died today, do you know where you would spend eternity?” No, I do not. Nor do you. Nobody does. Truly, if your faith is based on you being able to avoid an eternal fiery furnace you need to keep that propaganda private, and you need to quickly get another faith. A positive rather than a negative one.
“This could be the beginning of the end of the world.” This could also be the beginning of the world (for someone born on whatever day you utter this nonsense). A great number of folks need to get over their apocalyptic fetish. Wouldn’t it be great to see someone carrying a poster board with the words, “The Beginning is Near!” At any rate, telling people something that has no basis in reality is just stupid. Very. It is good for a laugh, however.
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February 7, 2013 at 10:06 am
I hope it’s comforting for you to know that people are praying for you Kate.
Also, since you don’t know where you will be spending eternity do you think your chances of avoiding the eternal fiery furnace are greater espousing abortion on demand no apology or God is Pro-Life – please choose life?
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February 7, 2013 at 10:36 am
It’s not.
God is not prolife. She wouldn’t stoop to such trivial matters.
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February 7, 2013 at 10:41 am
Father Frank Pavone always used to say he was praying for me and it was in no way “comforting” because I am an agnostic. While I appreciated the thought, I always thought it was condescending in a way because he was telling me that HE understood everything and that I didn’t know jack…..
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February 7, 2013 at 10:46 am
Frankie is a shameless celebrity priest pandering to the ignorant for funds. During all the devastation from Hurricane Sandy, he had the unmitigated balls to beg for money to replace damaged office equipment in his NY fiefdom. Disgusting. I’d take his pseudo prayers for exactly what they are–pure PR…nothing more.
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February 7, 2013 at 6:05 pm
Kate your vitriol knows no bounds. You are the one who is shameless.
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February 8, 2013 at 3:05 pm
Did Frank ask for money from the government or from private donations?
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February 10, 2013 at 8:17 am
Don’t forget. We subsidize these batshit crazy religious institutions with our tax dollars already!
Easy way to solve deficit and enhance our humanity:
Follow the law and stop subsidizing organizations like the Catholic Church that encourage people to vote in a manner consistent with Catholic Doctrine. Especially through tax law.
Almost everyone of these nutty Religious groups will fall into this category. We could save hundreds of Billions of dollars every year! Easy.
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February 9, 2014 at 6:21 pm
>The class was great, thanks to the pnlepannirg of all three moderators. All of you are such an inspiration. One can only hope for improvement in order to achieve half as much as you gals.
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February 7, 2013 at 6:08 pm
On the contrary Pat – when someone says they are praying for you – that’s exactly what it means – they are praying for you; It doesn’t mean you are any less of a person than they are or that they think they’re holier than you. They are merely offering up prayers to God on your behalf. He will use them for you in whatever way he deems them to be necessary. What a nice gesture on his part. Now don’t harbor a grudge and accept his kindness for what it was. We can ALL use prayers. Amen?
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February 7, 2013 at 7:18 pm
What an unmitigated and, might I add, ignorantly unintentional act of bald-faced privilege and arrogance. When you and any other religious types say they are praying for you, it is the definitive statement that you believe that they need your prayers. Don’t hide behind your arrogance.
Further, don’t even think you can speak for God as you continue to attempt to do. You are so very clear about the glories and power and majesty of your mental concepts of God, about his power to make decisions. Yet, you contradict yourself time and time again when you say that we, as humans, have “limited capacity” and then turn around and write such nonsense as if you are omniscient. Get over your lowly self.
Let’s be perfectly clear, JS. You don’t know. You have, as you wrote, limited capacity. You don’t know. So,
STOP WITH YOUR OWN HOLIER-THAN-THOU CRAP. YOU DO NOT KNOW. NOR DOES ANY ONE ELSE.
Frankly, I’m sick of your religious crap. You have absolutely no regard for any of us who are of other faiths, no faith, agnostic, atheist. And why is that, JS? Got a really high opinion of yourself?
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February 7, 2013 at 8:34 pm
Wooh! Don’t get your undies in a wad. Relax – take a deep breathe – count to 10. There you go… Feeling better??
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February 7, 2013 at 8:49 pm
Personally, I don’t do roos. I like to let the boys hang free.
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February 8, 2013 at 3:15 pm
But why pick me to pray for? I just gotta figure it was because you/he felt I was destined for Hell because of my beliefs so they would try to cover me with the Big Guy. Sometimes I would laugh, but sometimes I would be very insulted when they prayed for me. and what is the prayer? Please, God, save Pat from his/her bad ways? Make him/her see the light! ?
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February 10, 2013 at 8:26 am
JS,
Please do respond to questions.
That is the purpose of a threaded comment section on a blog.
By avoiding good questions you only harm your own position.
By not answering you create a lack of any credibility to the foundation of any of your comments.
Trying to help you here.
Regards.
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February 10, 2013 at 8:37 am
I agree with Just Saying.
Only the One True God of the Church of Latter Day Saints can be relied upon for matters of morality.
Beware the Catholics and their false God and Idol!
The reject the Holy Book of Mormon!
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February 7, 2013 at 8:39 pm
P.S. The “Don’t get your undies in a wad” statement I must admit I borrowed from Kate R’s previous posts. Thanks Kate! LOL
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February 7, 2013 at 9:01 pm
btw, while i am relatively new to this site, there seems to be some pretty definitive anomosity toward this kate person. So, JS, what’s up? have you some issues?
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February 8, 2013 at 3:17 pm
I can’t wait for JS to answer your question, Horace! They are long time adversaries in the “wars” up in Allentown, but I’ll let them tell you the rest !
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February 9, 2013 at 2:52 pm
you won’t get an answer, Horace. Nice try though.
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February 10, 2013 at 8:19 am
Don’t hold your breath Horace, JS doesn’t answer questions.
JS just writes comments that do not make sense.
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February 7, 2013 at 8:44 pm
One of the problems of being a so-called “pro-lifer” is the need to conserve one’s own energies, a trait that is plainly shown in their general refusal to expend energy on behalf of real children. This conservation is psychically necessary, since they expend so much energy repressing their terror of death.
It is also manifest in the way they care: They care about, rather than for.
To care about someone else is to worry. Once there is nothing to worry about, the care ceases. The actual care exercised is directed at the worrier’s peace of mind: “If only my daughter would stop drinking and drugging, I could feel better!”
But to care for: Ah! a different matter entirely– that might involves weeks and years of constant vigil and toil, expenditures of vast amounts of time and money, as parenting entails. “Caring for” is not what the so-called “pro-life” movement is about. It’s actually addressing the psychic comfort level of the members.
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February 7, 2013 at 9:03 pm
Charles, you strike me as someone who has considerable experience dealing with people who claim to be prolife. Care to share?
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February 7, 2013 at 9:38 pm
Wow..I have to say first thing that I love this blog and look forward to new posts. I realize that this may have been said before and has probably been debated in great length, so I apologize for the rehash.
Here goes: If I choose to have an abortion why is that anyone’s business but my own? How does that effect anyone else, it doesn’t, so what gives anyone else the right to dictate what I can or cannot do with my own body?
I guess I am just totally blown away by people that seem to have nothing else better to do than hang out at abortion clinics harassing women, whose choice does not affect them in any way whatsoever.
How many women had an abortion today? Not one single thing in my life changed, the earth didn’t quake, and ocean did not part, their choice did not affect my life, so why should I be concerned about their choice? I’m not.
I guess what I am trying to say is why don’t these pro-lifers, who obviously have why to much time on their hands, use that time towards helping the already born children. Standing outside of abortion clinics year and after year has accomplished what exactly? How many women at that moment in time just suddenly decide right as they get to clinic to not have an abortion? Not many I would imagine.
Wouldn’t putting their energy into volunteering for something be more effective or becoming a child advocate to help already born children, be more useful to everyone in society than hanging out at abortions clinics basically accomplishing nothing?
Why don’t these pro-lifers make sure that women never even get the point of needing an abortion?
I would think that by the time the woman arrives at the clinic it is a little to late?
Also why is that the majority of people that hang out at abortion clinics always seem to be old white men? Are their lives so empty that this is all they can find to do?
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February 8, 2013 at 3:22 pm
Wow, Sarah, you really hit the nail on the head, or whatever that phrase is. Charles is the expert on their inner most thoughts but I guess they think they are “saving lives.” The problem is that’s hard to prove. If a woman walks away from an abortion clinic, it doesn’t mean she didn’t get the abortion. She probably went elsewhere where there were no protestors. And yes, why not go volunteer at the local homeless shelter intead?
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February 8, 2013 at 4:06 pm
That’s like asking you Pat – why don’t you blog about cooking?? Why focus on abortion??
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February 9, 2013 at 2:53 pm
Why is it so impossible for you give a straight answer?
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February 8, 2013 at 4:02 pm
Hi Sarah Rose,
1. Here goes. We are called to be our brother’s keeper and to offer assistance to those in need. If your friend was going to jump out of a window, wouldn’t you try and talk her off the ledge right up until she jumped? Also, it’s no longer ‘just your body’ when you are pregnant – that is unless you have 2 heads, 2 beating hearts, 4 arms and legs, etc. Your baby is a separate human being including it’s own DNA.
2. Most people that I know that go to abortion mills offering help have to MAKE TIME to go there out of their otherwise busy days. Trust me, none of them WANTS to be there. It is a very challenging and difficult task. Abortion affects everyone – the woman, her ‘partner’, other living children, society – abortion’s tentacles are far reaching,
3. Over 3,000 women have had abortions today alone. That is the sad truth. Even sadder for you is if abortion doesn’t affect you in any way, I can only quote God’s words in scripture “would that you were hot or cold but the lukewarm I vomit from my mouth.” Rev. 3:16
4. Again look to answer #2 – pro-lifers are busy people (who isn’t busy these days) but they make time to be at killing mills because God has placed it on their hearts that that is where he wants them to do his bidding. Standing outside abortion ‘mills’ year after year has accomplished hundreds of lives being saved. Children are alive and well now – thanks be to God!!
5. Repetitive – again see # 4.
6. Thankfully, we are working on it at a national level Hard to change society and the breakdown of the family. Even harder to debunk PP’s and private abortion mill’s lies as they go into the public schools where they encourage sexual activity to young school aged children while hoping to drum up future business. As a society we need to build up the family unit. Hey why don’t you ask Chris Rock’s Daddy and Mommy Obama to work on that??
7. It’s never too late to get a woman to jump off that abortion table and choose life and yes many, many woman have left even when they were on the table and many more haven’t gone in because people outside cared enough to offer her a better choice.
8. Guess you haven’t been to a killing mill lately. The majority of the pro-lifers are not old white men at the killing mills I frequent.
I hope this has helped answer some of your questions..
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February 8, 2013 at 4:42 pm
JS, Why don’t you ever answer the questions?
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February 8, 2013 at 6:26 pm
Just sayin’ is there anyway you can answer my questions without bringing a mythical being into the conversation? How about you repost what you just said without referring to god in anyway and see how it sounds. Thanks, and you really didn’t answer my questions, you do realize that don’t you?
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February 9, 2013 at 10:18 am
Hi Sarah Rose,
1. Here goes. We are called to be our brother’s keeper and to offer assistance to those in need. If your friend was going to jump out of a window, wouldn’t you try and talk her off the ledge right up until she jumped? Also, it’s no longer ‘just your body’ when you are pregnant – that is unless you have 2 heads, 2 beating hearts, 4 arms and legs, etc. Your baby is a separate human being including it’s own DNA.
**Who do you mean “We”? Are you also called to interfere in people’s privacy? Is that what your god tells you to do?**
2. Most people that I know that go to abortion mills offering help have to MAKE TIME to go there out of their otherwise busy days. Trust me, none of them WANTS to be there. It is a very challenging and difficult task. Abortion affects everyone – the woman, her ‘partner’, other living children, society – abortion’s tentacles are far reaching,
**No one Makes Time. Time is a man made measurement. And speaking of tentacle, nothing like the terrorists outside clinics reaching into women’s faces, interrupting, shaming**
3. Over 3,000 women have had abortions today alone. That is the sad truth. Even sadder for you is if abortion doesn’t affect you in any way, I can only quote God’s words in scripture “would that you were hot or cold but the lukewarm I vomit from my mouth.” Rev. 3:16
**Just because women have abortions is not reason enough to condemn those who disagree with you**
4. Again look to answer #2 – pro-lifers are busy people (who isn’t busy these days) but they make time to be at killing mills because God has placed it on their hearts that that is where he wants them to do his bidding. Standing outside abortion ‘mills’ year after year has accomplished hundreds of lives being saved. Children are alive and well now – thanks be to God!!
**Glad that you feel so self-assured that your god stuck some notion in your heart. Where do you come up with these ideas?**
5. Repetitive – again see # 4.
**Boring**
6. Thankfully, we are working on it at a national level Hard to change society and the breakdown of the family. Even harder to debunk PP’s and private abortion mill’s lies as they go into the public schools where they encourage sexual activity to young school aged children while hoping to drum up future business. As a society we need to build up the family unit. Hey why don’t you ask Chris Rock’s Daddy and Mommy Obama to work on that??
**Again, Where do you come up with these ideas?**
7. It’s never too late to get a woman to jump off that abortion table and choose life and yes many, many woman have left even when they were on the table and many more haven’t gone in because people outside cared enough to offer her a better choice.
**women are not on tables when they have an abortion. AGain, Where do you come up with these ideas?**
8. Guess you haven’t been to a killing mill lately. The majority of the pro-lifers are not old white men at the killing mills I frequent.
**Only this one is correct. The majority of protesters are old white women who have nothing better to do**
I hope this has helped answer some of your questions..
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February 8, 2013 at 12:55 am
Horace: the most dangerous words are, “Care to share?”
I was one of eleven children. Nobody did either me or my parents any favors by insisting I be born. I was also a single parent for the last 14 years of my son’s childhood. It wasn’t until I started working with needy families that I realized how deficient I was in my own parenting (nb: He’s still alive and a functioning adult). In order to earn my pay, I had to learn about why and how families could be dysfunctional, and so I learned about what defects both my parents and I had when faced with the job of nurture.
I learned just enough to stop being a danger just in time for my kid.
When the so-called “pro-lifers’ came to town, I started by challenging them to adopt. They refused. When 160 showed up to start Chain of Life protests, I went to their churches and asked the pastors to get 160 volunteers to commit 600 hours a year, as I was doing. They refused. When I videotaped the annual protest, they stopped.
Still, there was the underlying question: Why did their commitment to human life as they called it end at the delivery room door?
I spent years puzzling over it– it was clearly a case of people being torqued up about an issue, but having a bizarre attitude toward the issue. Something comparable would be people opposed to poor public schools, yet refusing to have their taxes raised to pay for good education.
A number of salient points emerged: they characterized themselves as “heroes,” but the object of their intended “rescue” was invented: they portrayed a fetus as having fully human and fully perfect characteristics. No other would-be “rescuer” can do that with his object: Save the dolphins? Dolphins commit rape. Save wayward teens? They can tell you to f*k off; save alcoholics? They can fall off the wagon. But a fetus can’t disappoint, can’t betray, can’t contradict anythng they say about it. If a hero doesn’t want to work too hard, it’s the perfect victim.
And why didn’t they want to work too hard? Understanding psychiatry gave a clue: humans who don’t want to deal with an issue can repress it, but repression can take an awful lot of energy. To save energy, though, what one can do is re-direct the bad thing– project it onto something else and scream at it. And pro-lifers were definitely screaming at pregnant women and abortion.
From there, it was easy to see that abortion stood in for something else they wanted to repress- and that was their own death. Read Ernest Becker’s book Denial of Death to see how it ties in with their need for heroism.
All else is trimmings– Gianna Baretta Molla as the patron saint of aborticentrism, the Gardynes choosing the healthy adoptable child over the gravely needy adoptable child; Flip Benham, dry alcoholic and Operation Rescue leader; Randall Terry, adulterer worshipped by his so-called “pro-life” followers, and on, and on.
But the bottom line is, it’s a dysfunctional self-help movement. The closer life gets to be their responsibility, the less sacred it becomes.
Some day a student will ask for the literature on aborticentrism, and I will die happy….
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February 8, 2013 at 6:56 am
Responsible I think you just answered my post, at least you have given me some insight into the minds of a “pro-life” person. Thanks
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February 8, 2013 at 6:54 am
“Yet, at the same time, as the Eastern sages also knew, man is a worm and food for worms. This is the paradox: he is out of nature and hopelessly in it; he is dual, up in the stars and yet housed in a heart-pumping, breath-gasping body that once belonged to a fish and still carries the gill-marks to prove it. His body is a material fleshy casing that is alien to him in many ways—the strangest and most repugnant way being that it aches and bleeds and will decay and die. Man is literally split in two: he has an awareness of his own splendid uniqueness in that he sticks out of nature with a towering majesty, and yet he goes back into the ground a few feet in order to blindly and dumbly rot and disappear forever. It is a terrifying dilemma to be in and to have to live with. The lower animals are, of course, spared this painful contradiction, as they lack a symbolic identity and the self-consciousness that goes with it. They merely act and move reflexively as they are driven by their instincts. If they pause at all, it is only a physical pause; inside they are anonymous, and even their faces have no name. They live in a world without time, pulsating, as it were, in a state of dumb being. This is what has made it so simple to shoot down whole herds of buffalo or elephants. The animals don’t know that death is happening and continue grazing placidly while others drop alongside them. The knowledge of death is reflective and conceptual, and animals are spared it. They live and they disappear with the same thoughtlessness: a few minutes of fear, a few seconds of anguish, and it is over. But to live a whole lifetime with the fate of death haunting one’s dreams and even the most sun-filled days—that’s something else.”
― Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death
Thanks for sharing, Charles. I did not know about Ernest Becker or you. It adds more meaning to our conversations online.
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February 9, 2013 at 8:24 am
You’re welcome, Horace.
So-called “pro-lifers” like Just Saying don’t dare look into a book like that one; they don’t have the emotional energy to consider that they are acting in response to their “terrifiying dilemma.”
You’ll notice she has refused to explore the depth of her own commitment to the care for human life. Becker goes on to say that “the hero pays the price specified by society” to earn status as a hero. So-called “pro-lifers” work to sell society the price they are willing to pay. That price entails a minimum of risk and sacrifice for them. Just Saying is very smart to avoid examining herself. What she would uncover would be very unsettling to her peace of mind.
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February 8, 2013 at 9:19 am
I love the directions these conversations are going….more indepth stuff. Super.
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February 8, 2013 at 3:23 pm
I’nm totally lost, too intellectual for me 🙂
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February 8, 2013 at 4:04 pm
Don’t worry Pat – so long as you agree with Kate you’re okay. Disagree with her and you’ll rile up the old red head and she’ll bite your head off!!
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February 8, 2013 at 4:43 pm
JS, that was a stupid comment.
Please answer all the questions posed to you that you avoid because you cannot answer them . . .
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February 8, 2013 at 8:09 pm
Who is the red head here?
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February 8, 2013 at 4:12 pm
So much for your ‘safe’ abortions!!
Carhart Patient Dead From Horrific 33-Week Abortion Injuries
February 8, 2013
Germantown, MD – A 29-year old woman died yesterday as the result of fatal complications suffered during an abortion at 33 weeks that was done by LeRoy Carhart at Germantown Reproductive Health Center in Germantown, Maryland. Information about the incident comes from an extremely credible anonymous source.
The woman, who came for a third trimester abortion from out-of-state, arrived at GRHC on Sunday and was seen by pro-life activists every day through Wednesday. Witnesses said she appeared “pale and weak.”
Early Thursday morning, the woman began suffering chest pain and other discomforts. Her attempts to reach Carhart were unsuccessful. The woman was taken by her family from her hotel to a nearby hospital emergency room at approximately 5:00 a.m. Efforts by hospital staff to contact Carhart or get informational assistance from the abortion clinic were unsuccessful.
The patient suffered massive internal bleeding into her abdominal cavity. She slipped into a Code Blue condition approximately six times before finally succumbing to her injuries at around 9:30 a.m. The case has been placed with the Medical Examiner for further investigation.
This tragic incident ironically occurred the same day that another medical emergency took place at a New Mexico abortion clinic involving long-time Carhart associate Shelley Sella. At the time of that incident, a politically motivated Medical Board in New Mexico was voting to clear Sella of negligence charges, related to a botched third trimester abortion using the same risky late-term abortion method employed by Carhart. This dangerous out-patient abortion process includes long periods of time where the patient is unmonitored while taking strong doses of a drug that causes unpredictable and sometimes violent contractions.
“The avoidable death of this young woman dramatically illustrates the dangers of third trimester abortions that are done outside of the safety of obstetrical standards,” said Troy Newman, President of Operation Rescue and Pro-life Nation. “In 2005, Carhart was also involved in the death of Christin Gilbert, who died after a third trimester abortion in Wichita, Kansas. It is time for medical boards to put an end to these horrifically dangerous and barbaric third trimester abortions. If they do not, we can only expect Carhart and his associates to send more women to the morgue.”
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February 8, 2013 at 4:45 pm
Again, JS reveals JS has no comprehension of the objective data on Abortion.
JS, please keep showing the world how clueless and uneducated the average Anti Choice – Anti Life person is.
It is educational.
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February 8, 2013 at 6:40 pm
OMG you do not actually believe anything that OR says on their website, man I could tell you some stuff about Troy Newman and Cheryl Sullenger that would curl your hair and I also have bridge for sale, cheap.
As with ANY medical procedure there are RISKS and I am sure this young lady knew that, people die all the time from safe legal medical procedures, what makes this incident any different from those?
I am truly sadden by her death but so far there is nothing on the news or in any of the newspapers about this happening.
Now don’t you think if Leroy had done something wrong it would have been all over the news by now in MD, and I live in Maryland, and so far not a peep.
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February 9, 2013 at 11:25 am
Sarah, the antis will say that the “mainstream media” is not reporting on it cause they are all “pro-abortion.”
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February 9, 2013 at 11:36 am
The abortionists, their coworkers, and the media cover it up Sarah Rose because it’s a scandal, shameful and something they try very hard not to expose. Bad for business you see. These same individuals also prey on the family’s shame that they won’t pursue an investigation and they will be able to sweep these women’s death’s under the rug. Most even boldly open for business the very next day as though nothing ever happened.
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February 9, 2013 at 2:49 pm
JS, your conspiracy theory is utter balderdash. Your assumption about medical professionals’ intentions illustrate your own ignorance and desperation. What family would have shame about their daughter/wife/sister dying? Death is without shame. It is the people in the antiabortion industry who inflict shame, who stigmatize and who berate the medical community—people like you. You’re still wallowing in the tragedy of a woman’s death.
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February 10, 2013 at 8:22 am
JS, you prove with every comment you know nothing about nothing.
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February 8, 2013 at 8:08 pm
stupid commenting without any evidence. typical of the antiaborts
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February 9, 2013 at 11:24 am
I dont recall any pro-choicer ever saying that abortion is 100 percent safe, do you? This obviously is terrible and sad.
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February 8, 2013 at 8:17 pm
So much for the drama, JS, and your attacks. You are remiss in responding to my questions. I hope you will comment. You’ve been so forthcoming about your point of view. Dare I ask you to be so bold to respond to my queries? Are you fearful? You have been so bold in your responses, much like the religious dramaturgists of christianity. So why so shy?
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February 10, 2013 at 8:28 am
Good Luck Horace.
JS doesn’t have answers.
Or the answers create too much dissonance in JS’s head.
Sad, and pathetically true of the average Anti Choicer . . .
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February 9, 2013 at 6:56 am
The loss of this young woman’s life is indeed a tragedy. Salivating in her death, as JS has done via the likes of ole boy Troy, is an appalling but typical response of the antiaborts. Their reckless, jaundiced media flaunt the death of women who chose abortion but ignore the bigger picture.
They fail to consider that on average only six women die from complications of a safe/legal abortion in the United States. Like mainstream media, they also conveniently ignore that there are 13.3 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births. They disregard that more than 68,000 women nearly die in childbirth in the USA and that each year, 1.7 million women suffer a complication that has an adverse effect on their health.
The antiaborts will not admit that the manifest functions to restrict abortion access have latent functions that increase the risks to women’s health. The antiaborts generally align themselves politically with conservatives who fight against affordable healthcare. Currently, the United States spends $98 billion annually on hospitalization for pregnancy and childbirth, but the US maternal mortality rate has doubled in the past 25 years. The U.S. ranks 50th in the world for maternal mortality, meaning 49 countries were better at keeping new mothers alive. African American women are 3.2 times more likely to die due to pregnancy/childbirth than women. The antiaborts never talk about the relative safety of early abortion compared to the risks of childbirth. They never mention that all surgeries come with risks of infection, hemorrhage, and death including a tonsillectomy, a c-section, a transurethral resection of the prostate, open heart surgery, removal of a sebaceous cyst and on and on.
What we see on this blog, then, is the self-satisfied smirk from JS, the JS that ignores the very realities of women’s lives. How utterly convenient of you.
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February 9, 2013 at 11:09 am
Salivating in her death as JS has done??? Gee whiz Kate – all I did was post a news item of ANOTHER DEAD WOMAN as a result of a SAFE abortion procedure. YOU, dearest Kate, are the one SALIVATING with the typical pro-death tactic – vilify your opponent thereby making them the target and/or wrongdoer thus removing the blame from it’s initial source, i.e., Carhart’s inexcusable behavior in this woman’s untimely and unnecessary death. PERIOD!
Also, where do you get your figures – “on average only six women die from complications of a safe/legal abortion in the U.S.??” Six? Really Kate?? Did you forget to finish your sentence? Six this week? Last month? For how long a period of time? Here’s a typical leftist recipe: state a lie, repeat the lie, mix in passion and more vitriol, cook until believable, serve with arrogance and a dollop of aplomb on the side while repeating the lie.. How utterly convenient of YOU!!
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February 9, 2013 at 11:29 am
JS – what exactly was Lee’s “inexcusable behavior?” Now, let’s be honest. Right now, all we have is the report of LifeNews.com. I’m sure you’ll admit that they might be just a little biased, right? So, for me the question is what are the actual facts? Or do we just assume that Lee was totally negligent? I mean, is that the right way to seek justice, by just listening to one side? And dont get me wrong – I know docs like Gosnell and a few others are total slimeballs. Lee is not that way. Indeed, you’d like him if you met him. I just prefer to not case any judgments until the facts are gathered…
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February 10, 2013 at 8:30 am
All one can hear is crickets when JS is asked a question . . .
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February 10, 2013 at 8:39 am
Thank you Just Saying.
Praise to the Mormon Church for shedding true light on the evils of Abortion, Catholics, and other Denominations that deviate from Mormon teachings!
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February 9, 2013 at 7:24 am
Just in case you believe the myth that anti aborts love women, that they “love them both” as they are inclined to say, read these comments from LifeSiteNews and their conjured story about the death of the women in question.
I just can’t find it in my heart to feel sorry for women who know exactly what they are doing but they don’t care and they do it anyway
But how does a woman carry a baby 33 weeks, has 5 weeks to go , then decides its now time to go get an abortion. She has 5 weeks, my God, what is wrong with people. And the doctors that perform this atrocous act are nothing but animals.
I can’t muster sympathy for women who die in these circumstances. She paid a vile excuse for a human being to destroy an innocent life. She got what she deserved.
Kelly, I know I should have something other than anger for these women but I don’t…. just anger and disgust.
What’s more tragic is the loss of the patient’s soul; The evil one is saying to her: “welcome to Paradise Lost.” Why? Because she chose to commit murder.
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February 9, 2013 at 9:39 am
Drk8….Exactly and very well said. I can’t bring myself to look at those pro-life sites, I can barely look at the OR website, but I do just to see what misinformation they are posting and will occasionally leave a comment, which of course never makes it past the “moderator.”
These so-called pro-life websites just turn my stomach because they just can’t seem to think beyond the nose on their faces. They may accomplish banning legal abortions, but they will never ban illegal abortions because you can’t ban anything. Since Troy Newman does not seem to have an occupation except running OR and they seem to be funded primarily by donations, they more blood and gore they can churn up the more money he makes.
I have also noticed,which troubles me deeply, is if you bring up sex-education and access to birth control as the best way to prevent abortions, they come back with a response like”well she should of just keep her legs closed and you shouldn’t have sex before marriage” like married couples won’t ever need to be faced with the decision to have an abortion and who says you can’t have sex if you are not married.
Again they either can’t or refuse to think beyond the noses on their faces.
In truth and it has been said many time on this blog, is that they are not pro-life by any means, they are anti-choice and very anti-women.
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February 9, 2013 at 11:24 am
While I don’t try to apologize nor do I support the above statements, I can honestly say they don’t even compare with some of the vitriol I’ve heard from hardened abortion zealots on this site and others.
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February 9, 2013 at 12:01 pm
Geez, JS, this is not about abortion supporters. this is about all those protesters who say they love both woman and fetus and then talk smack about the women. Can’t you see how hypocritical that is? Are you so thin-skinned that you cannot accept that some of your own kind say things that are problematic? Good, golly, can you ever stick to the subject? Your comebacks lead me to think you are 12 years old.
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February 9, 2013 at 2:57 pm
Don’t expect any response other than copy/paste from other people’s work and the uninspiring adolescent nanananabooboo.
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February 9, 2013 at 11:35 pm
Did you not see my above comment where I said I don’t support their statements?? Duh??
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February 9, 2013 at 11:35 am
JS, why not do your own research?
From Guttmacher,
In 2007, six women in the United States were reported to have died as a result of abortion complications.
From the CDC,
In 1992, 10 women died as a result of complications from legal induced abortion, and no deaths were reported associated with illegal abortion. In 1992, the case-fatality rate of legal induced abortion was 0.7 abortion-related deaths per 100,000 legal induced abortions. More current information, using national data from the Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System (37), CDC identified 12 abortion-related deaths for 2008.
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February 9, 2013 at 2:58 pm
Don’t expect JS or any other antiaborts to accept those facts that are the result of scientific methodologies, rigor and peer review. They prefer to make up stuff to suit their perverted dogma.
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February 10, 2013 at 8:32 am
Anti Choicers don’t let items as insignificant as
Facts
to get in the way of their beliefs or comments . . .
Why bother with facts when you can believe in Magic?
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